Episode 1: Pride & Prejudice by Jane Austen

Welcome to Stories That Change Us! What better way to launch our podcast than to discuss a story that has been adapted over a dozen times for the big screen and continues to enthrall readers--Pride & Prejudice by Jane Austen. Beloved for its vibrant cast of characters, dialogue sharp enough to trim a hedge, and literary pacing that feels like Sunday morning, we'll discuss the aspects of storytelling that Austen got right and have resonated with readers across the decades.


Moderated By: Melissa Grace

Question: what is a story that has changed your life?

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Transcript

Melissa: Hello, I'm Melissa Grace. Welcome to the first episode of Stories That Change Us. I'm here with my good friends, Micah Leydorf, Kat Lewis, and Laurel Thomas. And today we are going to discuss Pride and Prejudice. My favorite, my favorite movie, my favorite book, just so delightful. It's a simple story. Boy is rude to girl.

Girl dislikes boy. Boy proposes to girl and she refuses him in the, with the most classic burn ever written. Uh, later she discovers that he's stinking rich. Hijinks ensue in the end. They are married in an ideal 19th century wedding of both love and money. Today, more than 200 years later, pride and prejudice remains Austen's most beloved novel, and I think for good reason. I fell in love with this book because of the writer's voice. She is so adept at developing character through dialogue. She does it wonderfully. And, we all have a favorite quote, let's, Kat, you want to share your favorite quote?

Kat: Putting me on the spot there, Melissa. Of the people around the table, I would think that just from like an age perspective, I should be the person who's least likely to have read Pride and Prejudice. 

Micah: You don't think millennials read

pride and Prejudice, Kat?

Kat: No, I'm not going to badmouth my generation too badly, but, no, I don't think that the classic 20th-century literature is quite our forte.

It should be. It should be. And it should be for a lot of reasons. This one at least should be. The quote that stood out to me, there's a lot that I think get kind of thrown around there. And so I really was nitpicking for something that was. That retain the spirit of the character, but, was not one of the top 10 favorites.

And this quote came across to me and it's our beloved Lizzie Bennett is speaking. And she says that I am only resolved to act in that manner, which will, in my own opinion. Constitute my happiness without reference to you or to any person so wholly unconnected with me. And, I love that. I know, it's like, they, she litters the pages with burns.

I'm like, I would be a single woman forever if I just walked around spewing these burns at people. What I found interesting about that quote is, As much as it is a burn, you know, female to male in a romantic relationship. I actually think that this represents the mindset of younger generations.

It's like, I'm not worried about you. I'm not worried about anybody else. I'm going to do me. At all costs, right? Because you don't matter and you don't matter enough. 

Micah: And you liked that out of all the quotes?

Kat: It's not that I liked it. I just thought, I was like, man.

It's sexy in this context, but as a life philosophy, it's damaging.

Laurel: It's pride.

Kat: It's pride... It's pride. 

Melissa: I think that Austin was very, she was very judgmental of her characters and I, I don't think she meant that to be necessarily pride. And, you know, this is a topic, you know, it's open for discussion.

She may have. Okay. When the power dynamic is so skewed against women that for a woman to say that back then might have been admirable. 

Laurel: Well, this is Laurel. I think it sets Lizzie apart as the protagonist. 

Melissa: Yes. 

Kat: Immediately. Yes. No, and I, no, I, within the context of not only the story, but the historical setting of this novel, 100%.

But this speaks highly of the I'll do me mentality that we see really instilled within the younger generation. And it just, it just stood out to me even as you watch Lizzie's journey, that philosophy comes back to haunt her and it comes up to haunt her in a way that she's like, man, I think I just messed this up and I think I just messed this up in a big way that's irredeemable.

Melissa: Right. 

Micah: How about you, Laura? Which one stood out to you, Laurel. 

Oh, I 

Laurel: love the one about Mr. Bennett. "So, Mr. Bennett was so odd, a mixture of quick parts, sarcastic humor, reserve, and caprice. The experience of three and twenty years had been insufficient to make his wife understand his character. Her mind was less difficult to develop." 

Oh, I was like, she does that all the way through. Oh my goodness.

Micah: It goes back to what you were saying, Melissa, about Jane Austen's voice, and just how distinct, and how charming, and clever, and, you know, I think all of her characters, like we love them so much because I think they must echo what she must have been like. Oh, we just are attracted to Austin and her voice. 

My quote is similar in that it reflects the voice as well. This quote was from Elizabeth Bennett in regards to Mr. Darcy towards the end of the book, it said, "She was convinced that she could have been happy with him when it was no longer likely they should meet." When she's realizing...

She's so funny, and she just has a way of saying everything. It's just so 

clever. 

Melissa: There's, there's, there's so much with so much humor. 

Laurel: She uses that reversal technique within a few sentences. 

Kat: Oh, she is the pro at power dynamic reversals and it's why you have to keep up. I mean, you can't. Listen, have some coffee, be fully awake when you read this book, cause man, these people are battling to be the man or the woman on top in the conversation or in the situation. And you're like, it is highly entertaining. 

Micah: That's right. I'm just going to cheat because I couldn't just pick just one. So

Kat: Overachiever Micah.

Micah: I also... I mean, I love that because again, it shows Jane Austen's voice and the power reversal and all those things, but I couldn't help but loving the very end when she says, "I am happier even than Jane, she only smiles. I laugh." And I mean, who doesn't love a happy ending and who doesn't really love that, you know, everything ends up okay in the 

Melissa: end? 

That's right, that's right. One thing about Austin's voice that I heard a group of writers talking recently and they said that the highest compliment is someone saying only she could have written that sentence. And I feel like that that is definitely something. That I would say, I would say that about the opening line in this book, that I'm, the epic burn that, Jane delivers to Mr. Darcy after he proposes, declares his love. 

Kat: That was the, that was a huge act for Mr. Darcy. It was huge, it was so huge. 

Melissa: It is the 50 percent of the book. Like I, I have the pages and, you know, as writers we're taught that something really exciting has to happen at the very middle, and again, from the huge, they had just such a huge power imbalance because she was not only female, she was a poor female, and he was not only a man, he was a rich male.

So for her to say this, but she had, but still she responds with, "From the very beginning from the first moment, I may almost say of my acquaintance with you, your manners, impressing me with the fullest belief of your arrogance, your conceit and your selfish disdain of the feelings of others were such as to form the groundwork of a disappropriation on which succeeding events have built so immovable a dislike and had I not known you a month before, I felt that you were the last man in the world who I could ever be propelled upon to marry." So, not just a, "No thank you." 

Micah: That reminds me sometimes of those Shakespeare, Shakespearean insults. Like, we can't just say... 

Laurel: "Get lost, Buddy!" 

Kat: Oh, yeah. She's like, let me think of how many ways I can insult you.

Micah: And show my own superiority.

Melissa: So many, I could, I could just spend hours just. And that is, um, that is Mr. Collins saying that, um, "It's been many years since I've had such an exemplary vegetable." 

Micah: So character dialogue is something you do so well in your fiction, Melissa. Yes. But Jane does such a great job, too. Oh my goodness. Again, in some books, you know, there's just the protagonists, especially in romance. You just feel like everybody else is just revolving around those two. But in all of Austen's books, there's so many other interesting characters. 

Kat: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Mr. Mr. Collins. Mr. Collin. And you know, the thing I think that's difficult for writers, or at least it's difficult for me, is having dialogue that is doing more than just moving the plot forward.

Right? Reveals motive and backstory of every single character. One of the things I'm working on right now is evaluating what is the motive of every character in every scene, right? Because I think that when you think about that, you're like, you do get the ding dong sitting at the table, uninvited to dinner, about to inherit the family talking about these potatoes are just wonderful. And you're like, what's his motive? Well, he's an awkward man. Never thought he was going to get married. Trying to impress these girls, especially with Jane sitting next to him. 

Laurel: They're all pretty.

Kat: They're all pretty. Pretty girls and yeah. And they're probably on more options than he's had in his whole life. Like, you know, and it's, it's, you know, it's, it's the, , how do you create dialogue like this? 

Melissa: That's right. You know. 

Laurel: You take it apart. You study it. You read it 14 million times because, you know, it just might be like osmosis. It might just kind of enter our reader/writer psyche. And then just kind of, you know, filter. I mean, that's my hope when I read a favorite book. 

Micah: I think being a good writer really is about being a good observer. So, yes, it's maybe some are so good that you could research so much, that you could read so much, that you could replicate a dialogue. You know, because obviously we can't listen to 18th century or 17th century Scottish dialogue. But I think really, people are the same. So I think that, you know, being a good observer is really... That's the key to being a good writer, to just notice what's going on around you.

Kat: Right. Yeah. 

Micah: Maybe writing it down. 

Melissa: I agree. Yeah. So, our format here at Stories That Change Us, we are going to ask four questions. Uh, the first was our favorite quote, and the second is, what would you consider a moment of no return in the book? A moment that stands out with visceral relief, and how did that impact the characters from that moment on?

Micah: Well, I think you identified it right there, Melissa, with the proposal. I think the proposal is the point of no return. 

Melissa: Oh, it is. 

Micah: He's declared his love. Okay. Now, again, talk about power reversal. He has declared his love. And again, we still have a whole nother half of the book. That's not the end.

That's not the climax, so to speak of the story, that's, that's the, the very middle. 

Kat: You know, I would, I would add to that. I think that like a point of no return is when Elizabeth decides to become loyal to Wickham over Darcy, right? Because it was still up in the air for her with Darcy. She was like, I mean, maybe he's just this misunderstood introvert. Maybe there's something to this man that I'm missing, but then wickham enters the story and paints this pernicious picture. Oh, 100%. But he paints this, this picture of Darcy that confirms all of Elizabeth's quiet prejudices, right? Against privileged people, rich men, all these things. And so I think that when like, when Elizabeth decides I'm going to believe that narrative about this man over the other, I think that sets everything in the motion because, talk about your quote talking about, like, this is just the groundwork of my immovable dislike for you. That, her choosing Wickham over Darcy from, like, a friendship perspective and a loyalty perspective, was that groundwork, right? 

Laurel: I think the big burn in the, but you know, I mean, that is 50%, that is the midpoint. So, but , the interesting thing about Pride and Prejudice is that it takes a long time to unveil these things and I love that. Because it does, it takes like, it doesn't happen at the midpoint that, I mean, that's just the reveal that the pride and prejudice have been there all along.

But I love that it takes time to unpack the things that we believe to be true that are not true. I love that. 

Micah: I love that about classic literature, too, Laurel. Like, I think that, you know, these days, again, we talk to a lot of writers, we go to a lot of writer conferences, go to a lot of classes and kind of the modern thing is, Oh, we have to jump right in.

We have to like have that point of no return, like immediately you have to jump right in the story and grab the reader. And you do not, the modern reader does not give you time to build up subtly. Like, you know, most classic literature would not be successful or popular today if it was written. Like nobody has time for David Copperfield, right?

Like no one is being paid by the word anymore. So it's kind of sad, and I feel like we've, we've lost that a little bit, but it's one of the reasons why I feel like, um, you know, what most of what people read is actually the backlist, as we refer to it, is, you know, it's the, it's the old classics. We love them, and it's also, again, we're talking about adaptations, I mean, everybody has their favorite adaptation. It's been adapted, like, literally like half a dozen more times, Pride and Prejudice, and then the other Austens, you know. Add all those in, oh my gosh, how much has her work been adapted in film and movies and such?

Kat: Readers are looking for an emotional experience, and it does take time to build the emotional silhouette. You can have some big flashy things happen, or some important things happen to get them to think, this is interesting to me, but it takes time to build the emotional weight, of I've had conversations with this man that have left me on the edge. He could be really great, or he could be like this horrible monster, right? My prejudice has proven to be this horrible monster. But then the second half of the book is him doing all these things that dig at her predetermined. And none of it matters if we don't have emotional investment. So I think it's, it's from the modern audience, it's this balance . 

Micah: To speak to your point, Melissa. So I'm Gen X, maybe like Gen X maybe is reading a little bit more classics than the Millennials, but I think everybody's watching Netflix and that's where all these adaptations come from.

Kat: Yes. Yes. 

Micah: And, you know, like, again, Clueless is based off of, you know, uh, you know, Emma. Yeah, like, so I think maybe they're not reading it, but they're watching it. 

Kat: They're consuming it because it's emotionally rich, right? And that's, and that's why I think that it talking about stories that changes matter because there's so much emotional trash out there.

Melissa: My, just from a writer perspective, I just love, love, love. Um, Jane Austen's voice, and I feel like that because she has such an entertaining voice, we're more patient for the unfolding. 

Micah: You're picking out your very favorite quote, and it's about vegetables, and you're picking out your favorite quote, Laurel, and it's about, you know, Mr. Bennett and his interaction with his wife. Just as an example of how much we just enjoy every little bit of it. 

Melissa: And I, I think of, okay, voice is the scenery. Okay, you're going on a journey when you pick up a book. And voice is the scenery. And plot is the destination. 

Laurel: I think that aspect of voice is what makes, what makes fiction great. You know, an authentic voice. A movie. Yes. Very unique. And I mean, there's so many: "I wish you happy." It's just a funny little story about a young girl who is learning to draw boundaries. And it, but her voice is strong. She's funny. And, , there's just so many, "The Maid." This is just a maid in a hotel and she witnesses a murder, you know, the plot line is not like Oh, but the point of view is so incredibly rich and it's just authentic and good and you want to read all the way to the end.

So they may not be leisurely, but I think the point is a, a unique, authentic point of view is so difficult as a writer, but it's so powerful to a reader, right?

Micah: We will in this podcast. We aren't going to just be focusing on Austin or 18th-century literature I think Kat's got us reading modern stuff.

Kat: Your face is so pinched, Micah! It Ends With Us is gonna be so well worth it. I'm so excited for you guys to There's a little preview. Yes, yes. But you know, Laurel, I think that that's like a great,... you're talking about these stories that you're summing up so quickly. And I think that there is this narrative out there that stories have to be complex in order to be entertaining, in order to be gripping.

And I'm in the process of writing a Cinderella retelling and recently pitched it to someone and she just looked at me and she's like, Kat, there is so much going on in that story. She's like, I'm a little overwhelmed. I've lost the essence of the story. And I think about some of these, these bestselling works. Jane Austen's a great example of somebody who does simple stories, right? With depth. I, but I even, we even go across to a story that is not my favorite at all. 50 Shades of Grey, or even Twilight. You can sum up those stories in 10 words, right? And you've captured the essence of a story. I think that like, there's an element of simplicity here that makes Austen's work both unique and original.

Micah: So I think that, you know, Austen has a lot of things that were original about her writing. I think that, like, you know, it was a very clever way to do social commentary. Um, because I guess that's, you know, I write a very different, I'm kind of a reluctant fiction author. I love a good story, but I'm all about, like what's the deeper meaning here?

Like, what is the this truth that this conveys? And I think Austen does that very entertainingly. But again, there's, there's a truth there that really conveys really well about, the social constructs of the day, as well as, like, the dynamics between humans that hasn't changed. So, I think that, that she, you know, just had just a talent of bringing out those things, and then also just, like, drama of the everyday.

Like, opening up the, the world of women, and make, you know, making it interesting, right? Yes. Because there weren't a lot of women authors, and all the books, it's like, swashbuckling, and, you know, the things that interest men versus the small world of women which also has high drama. I think that that's so wonderful how she created that. 

Melissa: That's right. I love it too. Our third question: Take two characters or groups of people from Pride and Prejudice and what is the power dynamic between them and how does it affect their interactions? The first one that I can think of is of course, um, the Men at Netherfield and the ladies, the Bennett sisters. You know the macro is rich men, rich single men, and poor single women, and just the, austen just wrote so much to address that dynamic in her society. She just, you can just tell she just hated it. She just hated that women were so dependent on, marrying successfully, and in her society's eyes, successful meant marrying money. Because that was the only way to improve your social situation.

Micah: Or really the only way to survive. I mean, it wasn't just improve your social situation, so they were...

Melissa: Well, she survived by writing novels, but that's one in a million. 

Micah: Most don't have that skill so...

Kat: But also Caroline Bingley's interactions with the Bennett sisters. This idea of like, feminine competition with each other, and this idea of like, there's a lack of resources. There's a, there's, there ain't enough men, there ain't enough corporate jobs, one of us is gonna have to fail. And for all of this boss babe culture that says, you know, it's pro women all the time, I still see that kind of petty crap today.

Micah: Well, that's why this is authentic. That's why Austen is authentic. She is. And again, it was real then, it's real now, and actually that's why I love all of you ladies, because I feel like, you know, it's, it's real among authors. There's a lot of, one upsmanship and jealousy and, and, you know, we've been for years now, friends and in a critique group together, and I, we don't have that. I think that that is rare and why we, wanted to start this podcast together. 

Laurel: There will always be a power dynamic with pride and prejudice. Oh. It's inherent. 

Melissa: Wow. Yeah. Deep thoughts with Laurel. 

Kat: That should be a podcast. That's right. 

Melissa: Um, what aspects of the book were unique and original? Be specific. 

Kat: Well, I think Micah kind of touched on it. Just this idea that it was a book published by a woman. Yes. Right? period. I mean, that, that was unique and original, but I also think that it was, it was not this, one of the reasons I think it was, I believe it was so successful in the time is she could have written this dramatic tragedy of the injustices of the day. But she wrote an honest commentary of the true nature of things. And it's still sweet. In a, in a hilarious way. 

Micah: Modern authors take note it doesn't have to be . It doesn't have to be dark. It doesn't have to be edgy. 

Kat: Trudgery. 

Micah: It's like she wrote the truth, and she wrote it in a way, it's not like, making us all feel bad, right? Like, that we can feel happy and cheerful and still see, like, oh, this is not, um, 

the way things should be. 

Kat: There's power in the palatability, I'm gonna say. Ooh, nice, I like it. I know, I know. I was like, ooh. 

Melissa: I think that's actually, like, like a proverb, like, you know. Sweetness. 

Micah: The way you say things matters.

Kat: I think that was really important for her because she knew that she was already breaking the sound barrier and she's like, if I'm going to break the sound barrier. . I want and need people to hear me. So I can't come at it, swinging the sledgehammer at the patriarchy.

Right?

Micah: Here's the deal. Like, I mean, there's a lot of beautiful, wonderful movies that are super powerful, right? That you never want to see again. You know, that you are like, "Okay, that's an important movie, and I'm glad I saw it, but oh my gosh, I'm not going to like, suggest myself to that torture again. Versus Pride and Prejudice, we're all like, "Let's have a party. Let's make high tea!" 

Laurel: I think there's a basic respect that an author, a great author has for people. You know, I don't think that great authors are casting stones, you know, just throwing them, tossing them here and there. I think they have, okay, this is just my opinion, but I think cultivating a general attitude of respect, it really comes across in, in really bringing different personalities to light, showing, you know, the good as well as the ugly. I mean, because it's like a genuine respect of who people, just because they're people. I don't know, I see that in Jane Austen. I 

Micah: love that. And again, it goes back to your very first quote. Like that you, when she's talking about Mrs. Bennett, right? It's like, okay, yes, Mrs. Bennett is a flawed character.

But Austen, she creates her with compassion. Right? She's not, we're not making, we are making fun of her, but in a, in a, in a gentle way. I feel like 

Melissa: that. She, like you were saying, she comes out tongue in cheek and she is, , she is wanting some things to change in her culture for her sex for women, but she comes. She's, it's like she says, we're all on the same side here. And she says, , you know, kind of some self deprecating things like, , just reading the first, the very first sentence, which Pride and Prejudice is the best opening sentence ever in the world. "It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife."

And that, to me, , she's putting the, , her own sex in a light that says, we're kind of silly sometimes, , but okay, we're just going to have a fun little ride here, but hopefully you'll learn some things about how it's hard to be a female in this society. Right. So, yeah. Okay, now it's, character roulette?

Oh, boy. Do you wanna draw out the character? 

Kat: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Let's see who we, who do we have in this mishmash? We have Elizabeth Bennett. Mr. Darcy couldn't be without him. I'm gonna say Caroline Bingley. What's-his-face bingley. The names are blurring now.

Just Bingley. Bingley. Just Bingley. Um, Wickham. Wickham. Mr. Collins. Mr. Bennett. Mrs. Denton. Lady Catherine. Lydia. 

Micah: All the sisters. The sisters. That's right. All the sisters. Lydia. Those guys. 

Melissa: Pull it out, Kat. 

Kat: . Do do do do. And we have Mr. Bennett.

We do love Mr Bennett. You know, Laurel, you made an observation about this in one of our pre-chats that when I went back and watched the movie it painted Mr. Bennett in a totally different light. I was like, I'm conflicted now. I don't know. But, um. Which movie is this? Which adaptation? Oh, this is, I was watching the only adaptation that matters:

the 2005 Joe Wright movie with Keira Knightley, Matthew Macfadye. I don't want to hear anything else. Put fire in the comments if you agree, or... Okay, 

Micah: you cannot say that without allowing a counter argument, because you can't, Kat. You cannot just throw that down. I'm just going to have to say... 

Kat: If you can say a counter argument in less than 42 words...

Micah: I can do both in more than 42 words and less. I will just say this. I'm just like, sometimes a fact. So, I happened to be living in London whenever the 1995 version came out. 

Melissa: The PBS version?

Micah: No, the BBC version. BBC version. The BBC, like, you know, quintessential Colin Firth, eight-hour-long version. And what was so fascinating to me was, it's not like people hadn't heard this story before. It's not like we didn't know that Elizabeth Bennet and Mr. Darcy were gonna get together. And yet, you would hear people talking on the street, in the tube, about... It's like, oh my gosh, like this is like, it's... 

Melissa: Oh, that would have been so fun. 

Micah: It's so relevant for today. Like we're all rapted, you know, watching because it's so good. So, I'll just throw that out there.

Melissa: And I will throw out a version that will not ever be on the list of the best ones. We were also in London, like just, not then, but went to Theater in the Round at Regent's Park.

It was Pride and Prejudice. I was like, I am so excited! And then, the first time there, Mr. Darcy opens his mouth, he sounds just like... the Mr. Collins in the very, in the 2000 book. I love that actor, and I can't think of his name right now, but he sounded just like him and it was like, this is like wrong. 

Laurel: This is wrong.

Melissa: No, no, no, no. You can't sound like him. It is. That's right. 

Kat: That's right. Okay. So Mr. Bennett. Mr. Bennett. Mr. Bennett. Laura, what you said is you said, um, Mr. Bennett is not a good husband. What? There's, there's so much happening in this story that it's easy for the dynamic between Mr. Bennett and Mrs. Bennett to just kind of get thrown under the table.

Especially because Mrs. Bennett is such an extreme character, but you're, and she's not very smart. And she just, man, Mrs. Bennett. Yeah. Was all the things wrong with society at the time, but maybe she was a pro, she was a product of society, so I can't blame her too much. But, um, this idea of like, Mr. I, I used to view Mr. Bennett as this kind of admirable father, very forbearing. And you're like, no, he's neglectful intentionally. He chooses the easier thing for him than for the family. He openly admits that he's not in love with this woman, which I had to go back and find and when I found it, I was like, It's in there! Yeah, yeah.

You know? So, I, you know, not, I, I think it's interesting how, I don't know, not only for Elizabeth's journey. How there were moments along the way where Mr. Bennett's inaction, which is what I would, the word I would pair with Mr. Bennett is inactive, right, right, intentionally. So because he's like, it's just easier to just let the women, you know, chaotically cavort around the house rather than me trying to step in.

And I think about all these moments in the story where Mr. Bennett, if you had just led, if you had just tried, right? 

If you hadn't been so. His, his highest priority was, um, just peace, peace in his study, having, having peace and quiet in his study. Yes. 

Micah: Yes. I don't know. I feel like we're kind of sometimes, you know, putting a modern sensibility on, um, an older time.

So, you know, you say like, Oh, he's not a good husband. Okay. Well, what is a good husband? These days we have this like idea, like romantic love is the be all end all. This is true. Versus like, what is a good husband? Oh, he was faithful. He provided he was a good father, you know, like all these things. It's like, okay, he wasn't in love with his wife.

Well, back then that was not a requirement for marriage. So it's not like she said, Oh, I love you. And now I don't, it's like, yeah, he is doing what is necessary to keep again, like peace in the house and a roof over everyone's head and to still maintain some integrity in himself. Like if he was to act like he was in love with this woman who really irritates him and is very annoying, like, is that a good husband? Like, because that's going to require dishonesty on his part. So, I wouldn't argue that he is not a good husband. I'd say he is a good husband. He is being as loving as he can to Mrs. Bennett, who is at his lot. He's probably not super happy. He's obviously not super happy with that. And yet, he's doing, he's, he's staying true to his vows. He's loving his daughters, I'd say he's a very good husband. 

Laurel: I must have been having a bad night. I don't remember saying that. 

But, you know, I mean his character, because, I mean, if you put one man in a household of women, listen, it's a whole different deal. I think that in the book, as far as his description, You know, he has this rich kind of character and he seemed, I mean, the last time I read it, it seemed like he was more engaged.

Well, this is another 

this is another 

Melissa: layer of her just being honest about the culture at the time. You know, kind of pulling back the facade of this man and his, you know, she was pretty. And, you know, Mrs. Bennett is, is a pretty lady.

That's, um, what attracted her, him to her in the first place. Pulling back the veil that it's not what it looks like from the outside, where it's this, you know, copacetic, everybody's happy dynamic. She, through, again, through dialogue that I just love, love, love,] she paints him as snarky and always having just a little bit of fun.

That Mrs. Bennett doesn't get, 

Kat: no, okay, but like, no, no, no. I think there are moments, I think about when he was encouraging Lizzie to go and be jilted by Mr. Wickham. Okay, that's phenomenal advice. You know, I think about when, Elizabeth is like, do not let Lydia go, right?

And he was like, and he was like, Lydia needs to learn her own insignificance. And the subtext I read there was because I failed to teach her her place. Right? Interesting. But also he's like. We will never have peace until she goes. Again this idea of peace. And so I think about like from up As somebody who moves the plot along you're like, yeah Can you this character through his decided inaction for whatever whatever his reasoning may have been? Yeah, really? I mean the the tides could have been totally different, right? 

Laurel: Now. I remember our conversation We were talking about that. Oh like how do the tides? Turn, you know, in specific ways. Yeah, yeah, 

Micah: yeah. And also, you know, that's the beauty of well-developed characters is that they, they are not, um, defined by every single thing. Like they can make mistakes, right? 

Melissa: I just love how, how Austen painted him with not a broad brush, but, you know, an, an intricate, she made him an intricate character. Mm hmm. Um. Oh, yeah. And she could have just made him the guy who, you know, says. I love you, my dear, and 

you know, whatever you're saying, I mean, this paper cut out character.

He could have just, like 

Micah: you said, retreated to his study and that could have been him. It could have been like, oh, he's just really a non character and he retreats to his study and lets his wife run. But that's not what happens. That's, that's not what happens. But you see 

Laurel: a lot of him in Lizzie, don't you think? I, because he is wit and you know, he, her, just the way that he, he'll look at a situation, sign it, size it up and then have a one liner. Wow. You know, Lizzie's 

Micah: that way too. Oh, I don't think she would be the same character without him. We all need, like, so she can go against all of society and she can go against her mother, but if she didn't have one person, if she didn't have her father giving her that affirmation that we all need, we can't go against the whole world. But I think that her father was really the person who allowed her to be who she was. 

Agreed. Agreed. 

And in 

Melissa: defense of Mr. Bennett, he was the one that um, after Mr. Collins proposed, the famous line. where he, where, you know, mrs. Bennett says, I'll never, I'll never speak to you again if you say no. And he says, well you have to choose then, because I will never speak to you again if you say yes. 

Which is classic Mr. 

Laurel: Bennett. 

Melissa: That's right, and, and, it's, it's, 

Micah: yes. So he, 

Melissa: he redeems himself. Oh yeah. Very much. He does. Oh yeah. 

Laurel: You know, we're talking about stories that change us.

And so I wonder how much a story changed that culture, you know, because I don't know. I mean, I think as a writer, things come out of your conviction as you write a story, as you weave a story. And, you know, sometimes people say, well, it's just, it's just entertainment. It's just, I like, it's fun, but how much did Jane change her culture?

Micah: I don't know. You know, I mean, I think she's changing culture now. I often think of that opening scene, I know I'm being awful, but to switch to Sense and Sensibility versus Pride and Prejudice, but where, you know, the relative is, um, the male, closest male relative is sitting next to the father who's dying and he takes this deathbed promise that you will care for my wife and my daughters and he says, yes, I promise.

You know, he's getting all of his worldly possessions because of the laws of the day and he then is talking to his. And I was like, I think you know, 2000 pounds a year is sufficient. And she's like, well of course it's sufficient. And they talk themselves down. She just, she just, she just keeps talking. She keeps talking it down to him. Eventually it's like, I don't think he was really talking about money at all. I think he was really talking about something. And in my head, I think of that conversation, that scene so often of, you know, you can justify, if you want, you can justify. Um, you can like go down that road and justify your own behavior and rationalize whatever you want.

And I mean, that's Austin changing my behavior today. 

Melissa: So, yeah. Well, thank you all for being with us. We have enjoyed this discussion very much and, um, this is Stories That Change Us and we'll see you again next week.