Episode 2: Outlander by Diana Gabaldon

Join us as we travel to the broody Scottish Highlands and uncover the secrets of character building and historical accuracy of the first installment of the wildly popular series, Outlander by Diana Gabaldon.


Moderated By: Micah Leydorf

Question: what is a story that has changed your life?

https://instagram.com/storiesthat_changeus?igshid=eTlibmFxdXZmbXV5&utm_source=qr

Transcript

Micah: Hello ladies and welcome to the Stories That Change Us podcast. I'm thrilled this week because we're going to be discussing that historical /sci fi/ adventure romance story written by a science PhD with a background in scripting, Outlander by Diana Gabaldon. So it was written over 30 years ago, published in 1991, and it kicked off the massive Outlander series.

So this first volume that we all are reviewing is over 300, 000 words alone. And you get, yeah, I know, so for the readers, I mean for the listeners out there. 

Melissa: Nobody lets me write that many words. 

Micah: I know. The average novel these days is what? Depends what your different genre is. 

Melissa: Oh, um, like 120 tops, isn't it? 

Kat: I mean, for like your romance 50 to 75 thousand.

Your epic fantasy--we're getting like a hundred and twenty thousand, so right the fact that people have read a book that's three hundred thousand words is actually pretty impressive

Micah: or that a publisher published 

Kat: or that a publisher published three hundred 

Micah: Especially right paper prices these days 

Kat: exactly exactly 

Micah: And then that's just the beginning, because she's, there's so many of these that we've lost track of how many books are actually in the series. They probably wouldn't circle the globe, but they would probably outweigh a small kindergarten classroom with the weight of these.

Laurel: Great imagery. 

Micah: So not only is the series so popular as the book, it was actually named, like, number two, I think, in, PBS's Most Beloved American Novels. And that's actually how I was introduced to it. I was watching, like, oh, all these hundred best loved novels, and I've heard of most of them, read a lot of them, but I was like, Outlander, how did I miss that?

And it's like, at that time, I was, like, 20 years old. Yeah. It wasn't, like, something was brand new. Yeah. But it's now gotten a small screen treatment, so it's been introduced to a whole new group of fans and, adorers, but it has to be on cable because of its, M. A. level of steaminess. So just a little bit of warning.

Laurel: Very steamy. 

Kat: What is, is M. A. mature audiences only? That's, that's an understatement, for sure. Thank you, thank you HBO for. 

Melissa: I am mature, and I'm not quite mature enough for it. 

Micah: So, and this was, okay, so, Laurel and Melissa, was this your first time reading Outlander. Is that right? Yes, this was my first, yes. 

But Kat, you had...

Kat: I had already jumped on the Outlander train, like I was, I was already there. 

Micah: Okay, so I'm not ashamed to say that this one was my pick for this first few rounds of books that we chose to discuss with you all. So let's go to our, our regular questions that we, ask each time. So the first one we always like to talk about was, what was your favorite quote?

One of your favorite quotes and why? So who wants to start us off on that?

Melissa: Oh my goodness. So, so, so many, , I just, okay, Jamie, can we talk about Jamie? 

Kat: Jamie is the only thing to talk about. 

Melissa: And this is something that is on my radar because I'm trying to write what I'm writing right now is a love story and I want to illustrate a husband's heart, which I just believe is a concept that it's just a gift that God gives, to a man, to be willing to lay his life down to protect his wife.

And, I just see that all through Jamie. I mean, it just, she just does such a good job. I don't know if, I don't know what her motivation was. But to me, it is just a universal concept, and I love this quote. "I can bear pain myself, but I could not bear yours." That would take more strength than I have. And I do think that that is just that special, special heart that is in a man who truly loves his wife. 

Micah: I think that you have hit it on the head, Melissa. Absolutely. I was actually even going to refer when I've talked about my quote to, "Oh, it's Melissa's husband's heart that she likes to refer to."

That's right. Because my quote is this. Again, just to give a little bit of plot overview for those of you who haven't, the few people who are not aware of this series or this book. 

Kat: Spoiler alert. We have plenty of time.

Micah: Yeah, this is, this is not really a spoiler because like I said, there's a big old series, but it's basically about a woman who goes back in time to... what is it, 18th-century Scotland? ... eventually marries Jamie who's the character that Melissa was referring to.

So the quote I love was before they're married, and it's when Claire, the protagonist, is first with this group of Scottish Highlanders. And he says, "You need not be scared of me, nor anyone else here, as long as I'm with you." And I know there's lots more steamy quotes later. There's lots more declarations of love and all these things. But for me, like I say, it's that, like you said, laying down your life.

It's that protective heart. It's saying, like, I'm going to sacrifice for you. I'm going to protect you. And to me, I just, I love that. That's, that's, that's, like you say, it hits the nail on the head. And not only, what I love about Jamie's character, and I honestly would throw out the theory, that I feel it's why everyone else loves Jamie's character, too, whether they realize it or not, is because of his sacrificial heart.

Like, he doesn't just protect Claire. One of the very first things we do is see him take the punishment for Laoghaire, this young girl. And then we see him do it over and over again in the book. Whether it's like taking the, you know, putting himself in front of his sister, or again, for his men. He has this, and it's really, Again, I feel like we're talking about the things that are true and good and beautiful and these are the things, like why these stories change us--it's the hearkening back to those true and good principles. And I just don't think you can really have a really compelling story without the element of sacrifice. Because that's just truth in this world. 

Kat: And to your point, Micah, I think that that's like what's missing in this world and this self-centric, you know, it's all about me and my glory.

I think that we desire people who, are loyal enough, believe in a cause enough, believe in us enough to say, "You're worth, you're worth the sacrifice." So yeah, Jamie does a great, a great, great job of that. My name is Kat Lewis for those of you who, do not know. And my favorite quote, Micah, is this.

And, and Jamie says this actually after they're married. This is kind of the after this comes after the big revelation of Claire saying, I'm not of this time period, and Jamie's response is this, "We have nothing now between us, save respect, perhaps, and I think that respect has maybe room for secrets. But not for lies. Do you agree?" And I love this for many reasons. One, I thought it was so smart of the author to not make Jamie this dumb jock who was like shocked and horrified and like, "You're not of this time?" Like, Jamie's like, 

Melissa: Witch! She's a witch! 

Kat: Yeah, yeah, but Jamie's like, I was kind of gathering that. Like, he's like, you were different and you were too different. And I didn't know why. But this, this, that, that scene right there fits the pieces together, but also like for his, for his, I don't know, there's like a display of maturity that says. We're all adults here, and there may be things that you are not willing to share.

Especially, granted, we were thrown together into this marriage, right? So, just enough, just for him to say, you can have your secrets, but like, my, my line here is when you start actively lying, right? To me this is the most healthy... Relational, don't ask, don't tell. 

Micah: You know, it might be jumping the head just a little bit, but I think that, that quote also just kind of illustrates a really important thing in their dynamic.

And one of the things that makes this interesting is that Jamie, like you said, oh, that he shows his maturity, that Jamie's young, not only is like he younger than Claire, like just. straight up in age in the book, but of course, she's from a whole other time, she's got a whole other life experience, but it's interesting to see how that dynamic works out that, you know, we talk about power dynamic and the tension it creates in a novel.

Kat: Yeah. I think, I think, I think, Diana Gabaldon was so intentional about making Jamie such a wise person. Because if he was unwise, if he was this unwise, silly, frivolous male character that we see like too much, we see too much strong women surrounded by these silly male characters, right? I think it would have thrown, it would have forced Claire into a set of actions that would have been so destructive, right?

Because she literally is like, you know, fate worse than death, married to this dumb guy, you know, and so it was so smart of the author to make Jamie the exact opposite of that and surprise us a little bit, right?

Laurel: Absolutely. I'm Laurel Thomas, and I thought it was cute, just in relation to what Kat is saying, but he said, "I believe you, but it would have been a good deal easier if you'd only been a witch."

Micah: That's your favorite quote, Laurel? 

Laurel: Yes, because I think that's the reality. I mean, if he didn't have some kind of a, What? I mean, because we're talking about, well, we're talking about 1840s, whenever it was, and like being a witch, that was a real deal. So it wasn't just the time travel that he had to overcome. But it was like, Oh, a cultural thing of... I don't think that in our culture we really can understand that, but yeah, being a witch was like really a thing. So it just added, to me, like a complexity to him that this was not like a, "Okay, sure, why not?" 

Kat: Well, and he's like, at least if you're a witch, I know what my options are. But if you're this woman, telling me that you come from a century of planes, and cigarettes, and, you know, and cars, he's like, "What? What do I do with that?" 

Micah: So I'm going to jump ahead off of that, Laurel, you know, to one of the other questions we like to ask, which is, what aspects of this book are unique and original?

And, you know, I would, throw out, first of all, that that element of time travel. It's, again, the author uses it so skillfully because you get to see into this world, this of, you know, the Scottish Highlands in the 18th century, but then it's also a safe way for her to interject modern sensibilities, you know, with the character of Claire without being anachronistic, like, , You guys know, and the listeners will soon know, like, that, you know, I hate Bridgerton.

I like to use it as, like, a whipping boy. 

Kat: She's a purist over here. Period purist. 

Micah: No, it's just the exact opposite. So you just take, you know, you could take the Scottish Highlands, and you could use that beautiful scenery, and you could use it to put your plot devices in. But then it creates a problem for the author of, we don't like those sensibilities, right? Like with where women were in that time. And she's like, well, how do I write a novel that's true to how people thought at that time, but also is appealing to a modern audience. And so I think that's just a very clever plot device that allows us to have this strong, independent, capable, headstrong woman in the character of Claire, but then also like open up this whole world for us.

Kat: I was kind of contemplating this on the drive over here, and I just thought, she took the two most beloved time periods genuinely our romance readers. We love a good bodice- ripping Scottish Highland romance. And for our historical audience, they love anything that revolves around the world wars that time period. And for her kind of strategically blend those two things together, I think, is what makes this book unique because it's like, is this the first time travel romance? No, is this the first, you know, forced marriage romance? No, but I think like taking these two eras that people really have an affinity for and weaving together those modern sensibilities. I think she does a really great job of of depicting the trials of a strong woman in an era where they're not used to that. They're not used to a woman who swears and drinks and is, is capable, you know, under tension. 

Melissa: And doesn't just take the beating and say, okay. Yeah. 

Kat: You know. Yeah. I mean, he's, Jamie was like. Did I ever think that she would fight me back as I'm spanking her? No. Are we surprised? No. 

Melissa: But at the same time, they do, she also does do a good job showing that the women in and of that time period are also strong. They just express it differently. And such,

Kat: oh, yes, Melissa,

Melissa: like, Jenny, I mean, who, I mean, Jenny, one of my very favorite characters, she, I loved her, I just loved her so much,

Micah: and that is Jamie's sister, 

Melissa: that is Jamie's sister, and one of the first people that Jamie lays his life down for, just, you know, figuratively, but, , I love her, I love her quote, "If your honor is a suitable exchange, if your life is a suitable exchange for my honor, why is not my honor a suitable exchange for your life?"

Because Jamie did, give himself over to be beaten and in exchange for what he thought was protection for her. Am I remembering that right? Yes, you are. Yeah. Okay. And, I loved that. I loved that strength in Jenny. 

Kat: Yeah. Well, and Melissa, you raised such a great point, because I do think that modern audiences are a little conceited in believing that we created feminism, and that females, women were these trampled-upon, weak, sorry figures up until we decided to do it differently.

You know, like, no, no, no, no, no. The feminine spirit is not a weak spirit, and so we will find our ways to express the fact that we're just as loyal as you and just as strong and just as willing to do the hard thing, and I think that the author does a really great job of surrounding Claire with women who are strong, but strong in different ways.

Melissa: Right. Right. 

Micah: Absolutely. There are so many, strong women characters in this book. Let's move to the next question that we normally have as a second question, which is what do you consider as a moment of no return in this book, a moment that just kind of stands out in visceral relief. So what do you think?

What did you think, see as the moment of no return in this novel? 

Kat: Well, who is the, the other woman from modern times? Geillis? Geillis. Geillis, I think, that from a plot intention and pacing perspective, that when they burn Geillis at the stake, I think it raises the stakes for Claire in a way that she can no longer be fooling herself or convince herself that these people really don't have. Like up to this point, the hostility towards witchcraft is slightly theoretical, right?

But when we see them burning this pregnant woman, I think it confirms for Claire that this, the threat is real, and I have to get back, you know. I need to get back to modern times 

I need to get out of here. It's been a fun vacation from reality, right? And so, because I feel like, you know, that kind of marks like the second half of her. Because if I remember correctly, at that point, she and Jamie are married. And, um, you know, she's kind of floating on this, everything's going to be wonderful. And then boom, this happens. And I think that like, at that point, like we see this, this inner tension, and she's like, this really is not a safe place for me.

And as much as I love this man, and as much as I want to be with this man, I do think I need to get back to the stones. And we see that focus re energized at that point. 

Micah: Okay, interesting. I wouldn't have picked out that point. How about Laurel or Melissa, what did you guys see as the point of engagement?

Melissa: I thought that one, one turning point was, and it was, I think it was subtle, and it was maybe just her building Jamie's character, but The Gathering, where he is forced to go before Colum, and he's trying not to go before Colum, because he thinks he can't win either way. 

Micah: It's complicated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Melissa: But, but I think that he goes and he's very wise. And he says, I pledge my life and my, my loyalty. But basically, I'm not after your, I'm not after your place. And I think it's a turning point again, I guess I was not quite finished singing Jamie's praises. But, to see him as not only handsome and not only, you know, a good fighter, but he's a strategic thinker. And he's wise enough to protect her, and I think it changes the way Claire looks at him.

Micah: Hmm. 

Kat: Well, and I think that's a great actually place to point out because that's the first time that Jamie sacrifices his interest to save her. Because if you remember, she's trying to escape. 

Melissa: That's right. 

Kat: Right? And he decides to walk her back and then they get captured and then he's forced to go do the same. And as the reader, you're like, he didn't have to walk her back, he could have just sent her marching back, but he walked her back because he's like, there's a bunch of drunk Scotsmen around, like, this could be really, really bad, and so I think that's a great, that's a great emotional turning point. 

Melissa: Yes, it was an emotional turning point. 

Micah: So interesting, I think that's why I love this series because I wouldn't have identified either of those turning points.

I'm going for the super obvious. To me, whenever they got married. You are, you know, you are single, you are separate, you can still go back, and now you're married. And especially for Jamie, that really means something and this is one item that is left out of the TV series that is more present in the books I think to the detriment of the TV series is Jamie's Catholic faith.

You know, in the book, I mean, in the series, they only really mention it in later episodes when it comes into political, because of course, the Catholic versus the Protestants was really, you know, hugely important thing in the fighting between the Scots and the English, but they don't really show a personal devotion or adherence on Jamie's part. But as far as he's concerned, they're indissolubly linked at that point, and it doesn't matter that they got married under duress, or out of, you know, a desire to protect her, it's, it's a sacrament, and it's, it's indissoluable.

And so, even for Claire's as well, you know, she's, you're married, that's, that's a, pretty big point of no return. So now she's married to two men. One in the 1940s and one in the 1740s. 

How about you, Laurel? What do you see as the... 

Laurel: well, I love that. I mean, because actually Jamie doing the thing of integrity is building the conflict and bringing it to that climax, right? It's not... 

Micah: it's 

Laurel: true for building characters, but I love that the basis of that plot development and the conflict are Jamie's integrity or is Jamie's integrity.

His decisions for personal integrity is kind of amazing and kind of a cool, I mean, I hate to say kind of a cool way to build a plot or a conflict, but I think that's the whole point, right? 

Kat: You know, Laurel, here's the, here's the raw reality of it. Oftentimes, doing the right thing is going to cause more trial in your life than doing the wrong thing, right? . The wrong path has no obstacles, you know? But for him to sit, stand up and say, I'll marry her. 

Micah: Just like, I'll take Laoghaire's beating.

I'll take her punishment. I'll marry this woman. You know, so many times he just makes you sick. You say these choices of integrity. And again, I feel like that's back to my little theory of that's why he has this crazy appeal. Like, I think it's because he's so handsome and he's so... 

Kat: strapping, sexy.

Micah: Right. All the things. It's not, it's because of that heart of integrity, that husband's heart, that protective, it's like, that's what we all want. That's what a man is. That's what we all want a man to be. And we, I feel like we're just kidding ourselves when we accept anything else. Yeah. Like, right. And 

Laurel: It's true that that spans centuries, right?

Melissa: Yes, it's universal, timeless. 

Kat: That's so good. And, um, like if he was just like a weak little slimy, you know, convenience base, you know, twiddling over there, 

Melissa: she would have been able to leave because, because, i, I don't know how else to say this and it's like, okay, my kids are going to listen to this, but good sex was not the, was not enough to keep her there.

Yeah. I mean, cause that's what, I mean, they portrayed that, that, that part of their relationship is, is, um, Prospering.

Kat: That's right. It's lots and lots of fun for everybody. 

Did 

Micah: we mention the M. A. rating? 

Melissa: We do mention the M. A. rating. But that was not enough to keep her there. What made her choose to stay with Jamie instead of going back to 1945 and Frank was his heart and how he did lay his life down for her and how, how he did nurture that affection between them with his honesty and just the things he did for her. So 

Micah: we could go on and on about Jamie. And definitely that is enough for you to pick up the book, for you to watch this, just for Jamie. Just that alone is enough. Definitely a reason. Um, let's move on to our third question that we like to talk about.

It says to take two characters and discuss the power dynamics between them and how that affected their interactions. So does anybody have any strong thoughts about the power dynamics between these characters? 

Melissa: The really interesting power dynamic is between Colum and Dougal.

Colum is the head, the lord, the lair, the laird, the laird, and the head of the clan and, but he is physically handicapped and, Dougal is his body. Like he's the one who goes out to war, he's even the one that fathered the heir, so, and just It's like they're they're two different sides of one person. Anyway, I just I think theirs is very interesting power dynamic because they both need each other But at one point Colum is just ripping him up because he is making , you know, impetuous mistakes.

Anyway, I just thought, I thought they were interesting. And I love this, though, I love this story. I just, every time I read a book like this, I think of a couple of pieces of advice that just always stuck in my head as a writer. And one of them was Will Smith talked about the success of his first blockbuster, which was Independence Day.

And he said that, it had all these elements. It had, it had a romance. But it also had, saving the world, and it had aliens, and it had, , all these, sub conflicts and, anyway, that is always stuck in my head, that, and also, something that Robin, shout out to Robin Patchen, I really love 

Micah: I missed it, so what's stuck in your head about 

that?

Melissa: Don't just do... A story about aliens. Do a story about aliens that is also, fighting to save the world, and a romance, and lots of other, like that, that movie has, 

Micah: it has layers, 

Melissa: it has, you know, sub, subplots, conflicts, you know, lots of characters working, and, what Robin said, that if you can do, if you can bring elements of other genres in to whatever you are writing, like if you are writing an adventure, if you can bring a good element of humor and romance in, it's going to set it apart from other, 

and this story does that. I mean, it's just got all the things. 

Micah: It does. 

Melissa: It's historical. It's sci fi. It's romance. It's adventure. Adventure. It's all the... It's humor. It's humor. 

Micah: Yes. It's emotional, you know, there's definitely even like, inspirational elements to it.

Melissa: I mean, just little subtle things that she puts in. 

Micah: And she does. 

Her writing is so good and so beautiful and that's, like, we're just talking all plot and character, right? Right. And it's a little bit hard to... To, you know, communicate the quality of the writing, but again. 

Melissa: The voice, yeah, she has a great voice.

Micah: Yes, but that's one of the reasons, I think, for obviously the popularity. 

Melissa: Yes, another, another layer of why it's, why it sold so well. 

Kat: Right? And, but I think that the, the power dynamic between Claire and Dougal is very, very interesting because we see these little spikes of tension, you know, flare up between Claire and Dougal.

In these key moments, and I just was thinking like, man, Dougal, if you are not so concerned about how you can manipulate a thing to your benefit or to the benefit of the cause, because Dougal is greatly patriotic. He is loyal to the crown and everything he's doing. 

Melissa: He's a Jacobite. 

Kat: He's a Jacobite. Yeah.

Yeah, and so I think it's interesting that there are moments when Dougal's like, you could choose me over Jamie, like I, I'm the convenient option, I'm the easy option,... 

Micah: I don't have a price on my head. 

Kat: I don't have a price on my head. There's a point where they're getting ready, they're convening in a cave, getting ready to go save Jamie from the garrison. And he's like, I mean, we could just leave Jamie there and you and I could go and get married and run this thing and we could rule the world.

Micah: Hmm. I wonder if we've heard that before. 

Kat: And I just thought, why did Claire say no? And I think Claire said no because for all the things that Dougal does really well as a character, as a man, she knows that he is an opportunist at heart. And if at any point it became convenient, more beneficial to him or to the cause to sell her out.

She knows that he would, because we see him do it several times in the novel. So I think it's interesting for Dougal to have such, romantic interest and sexual interest in Claire and for Claire's response to be this very thoughtful, like, and sometimes repulsed. That's a power dynamic that I, that I think adds a lot of juiciness because Dougal to me is the direct.

The direct contrast to Jamie, and we get to see a lot of play on, what does that, what does a strong woman interacting with these two types of masculinity look like? 

Micah: One thing I think that when we talk again about these stories and why they're classics and why they have this huge appeal. And I feel like the layeredness of them is part of the reason.

Like a lot of times, I'm not a real romance reader myself, I don't. And one of the reasons a lot of times I don't is I feel they're just so, you know, formulaic. Yeah! You know, it's just like, okay, these two characters, and they make up all these... imaginary obstacles, why they can't get together, and maybe there's a little bit of humor, and maybe there's a little bit of fun, but I love these sweeping epics, you know, like we're going to be talking about Gone with the Wind, you know, or, or like, you know, even Pride and Prejudice, there's so many other characters and layers, And like you said, so many in Outlander, so many great characters, so many power dynamics and not just much more fulfilling story and that's our life, right?

Like, it's not just about this romantic one person. 

Kat: Well, and Micah, I'm not a contemporary romance lover by any means for the same reason. I am like if y'all would just communicate, like, are you kidding me? Like, 

I feel like these sweeping epics, there is so much, there is so much conflict just in the life of the world that they're in, right? That, I'm with you, Micah, that leads to so much more of a richer story. A story that you can actually circulate conversation around. And it's a fulfilling romance, because there's the world, and the world tension, and cultural influences, all these things that kind of play into this, this depth. 

Micah: Well, and that's reality, right? I mean, like, we're, okay, three of us are married, and one of us, Kat, is single. 

Kat: Single and ready to mingle.

Micah: But, this is reality. Like, you, you think that you're going to be in this bubble, just you and this other person, and that's not, that's not our world. 

So you, Laurel, what do you guys think? What was some of the power dynamics that stuck out to you? 

Well, I think it's 

Laurel: interesting what you said about marriage and how that there's two. So that's the essence of conflict, right? It's also the essence of unity, but two independent people can make two independent choices. And I think that Outlander, she does such a good job with the fact that we're not dealing with one unit.

Yes, they're married, but they're two people. And they're totally different people from totally different ages. So, you know, it's interesting to look at, like, motivation and what is driving a character, and I think that's really the place where, where we go. We're willing to go into a world, Micah. I mean, that's a whole world, right?

And I think a romance novel, that's not so much the, the draw. It's not, they're not trying, I don't, I can't say, because I don't write romance, but it's not so much the world that they want you to be drawn into. They want you to be drawn into the hope of, you know, love eternal, despite obstacles. You know, but I think that what we love is the intricacy of, Hey, this is two different people.

All bets are off, right? 

Kat: And even if Jamie and Claire choose each other, and this is kind of what the rest of the book series is fueled off of. It's like, even if they choose each other, the world is so fraught with conflict and danger and. And then you do have these two very different worldviews, right, and sources of motivation.

Um, man, it just, to me, it's, it's not only more entertaining, but I also think that it equips the reader to deal with real life better, right? I think that's the essence of a good story, is if you can walk away... Genuinely, truly, not only changed, but equipped to go into the world and enact that change. 

Melissa: Wow. Yeah, looking at things differently. Stories that change us. Yeah. Stories that change us. 

Laurel: Imagine that. 

Micah: Well, I think we should probably move to our last, and one of our favorite little parts of the podcast, which is where we do our character roulette. We put into our hat ten memorable characters and draw one out and discuss their role.

So we've got well black Jack Randall, very very terrible, Jamie Malcolm McKenzie Fraser, who we all love. Claire Beecham, our protagonist. We've mentioned Dougal McKenzie, Jenny, Jamie's sister, Laoghaire, the young woman he sacrificed for, Miss Fitz, the granddaughter of the woman, Frank Beecham. We don't want to forget Claire's husband. 

Kat: We're not giving Frank a lot of airtime.

Yeah, I don't think we can talk about Outlander without talking about Frank Beecham. And he's such a great juxtaposition to Jamie's kind of masculinity. And, it's very easy to get lost in a Claire and Jamie love and forget about this man. And I think Diana Gabaldon was so smart about making Frank, Frank's kind of villainous, you know, counterpart is black Jack Randall.

And so we already had this really tainted view of Frank. Like the book starts with them in this awkward state of rebuilding their relationship after war. And then she's thrust back and then she has this, you know, this evil creep who looks exactly like her husband. So I think that she knew that, for the reader she had to build a Frank that was lovable and relatable.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that there's a scene in book one where we go back, you know what, now that I think about this, Melissa, this might have been book two. I don't know. But there's a scene where Frank is in the police station and the police chief basically is like, "Sir, we cannot keep exhausting these resources looking for a wife that has clearly left you."

Oh, right. And, and that just speaks to me that Frank was hot on the pursuit. He was like, You need to find this woman, you know, but I don't know about you, but we need, we needed that in order to still feel compassion for Frank and still remember, she did leave behind a man who loved her, regardless of the circumstance.

Micah: And she loved him. I mean, there's nothing wrong with their relationship. He loved her. She loved him. You know, 

Laurel: I have to say it's what took me out of the story right off the bat. 

Micah: Really? 

Laurel: Yes. Because I was like, Frank, she has a husband who loves her. What?! You're gonna go hang out with this hot Scottish guy?

I mean, I know there was more to it, but, and I understand, you know, as far as crafting that character and crafting the novel, that it intensified the conflict in a huge way. Oh, I'm not saying to disqualify the book. I'm saying that it was that strong, the way she wove that tale was that strong for me as a reader that I was like, Oh no, we're not leaving Frank. 

Kat: Don't do it. Don't do it. Well, and can I just also say that the reality is for those of us in the modern dating scene, I think we're going to encounter more Franks than we are more Jamies. And Frank is just as equitable an option as a husband, as a leader, as a man of the house, as a man who loves you, right? Um, as a lover, because let's be really honest, as much as Claire and Jamie are getting it on, Claire and Frank really started the book very strong with all of their sex scenes. 

Laurel: They had a healthy relationship. 

Kat: They did, they did. 

Laurel: And it's not mythical, it's just like healthy. 

Kat: Right? Right, but I think that we, you know, in dating culture we glorify the strong man. But just, I, I love this little quiet thread. It's like The Scholar and The Nerd is just as much of an option, right, to be this devoted husband and lover as, you know, the strapping, muscular, hot, hot, hot, hot, right, Frank's attractive in a different kind of way from Jamie.

And I love that she, she added that in there. 

Melissa: Well, we don't really have much opportunity in this society to have our husbands save us from armed marauders. 

Micah: But you know what? You know what though, Melissa? And I think you probably know this better than a lot of people. Since you do write, you know, romance. And you think about these things more. 

Melissa: Or like, you know, I know it's not strict. Just once. Right. Because I have to. 

Micah: But, it's not just that's not the only way that you can protect your wife. That's right. It's like saving her from armed robbers or from rape over and over again. Jeez. It's like there are lots and lots of different ways that we have of protecting one another and sacrificing for one another and being kind to one another and being a servant leader and that's, you know, what's exaggerated in, you know, this mythical world, but I think we all long for that and but it's, it's very much a possibility and actually called for in our everyday lives. I mean, 

Melissa: Yes, you're right. There are not many physical ways for a man in this society to protect his family, but there are. So many, emotional, financial, mental, spiritual ways for a man to step up and be the protector.

And you're right. And , I haven't read the second book yet, but I love that picture of Frank because you can see that in his heart toward her in, you know, just a little bit of time we spend with him at the beginning of the book. Like Laurel said. There is a Team Frank! 

Laurel: There is! She's here! 

Micah: Alright, well, I think that concludes our time for this week's episode, but thank you all, ladies.

I think it's been a really great discussion of a really wonderful book. I think we all highly recommend it, right? 

Kat: Yes. Agreed. 

Yes, but 

Melissa: to be warned, that it is, um, it is very explicit. It's just, that's... That's a little something that you need to know. 

Kat: Yes, both the book and the TV series. But it is a great sweeping epic that is worth your time. 

Micah: All right, thanks. 

Kat: All right, bye ladies. Bye.