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Stories That Change Us
A lively discussion between four friends and authors as they breakdown the most popular fiction from the last century. Join us as we identify the key aspects of storytelling, character development, and social analysis that have caused these stories to resonate through the decades and, in doing so, help novice and seasoned writers craft bestselling fiction of their own.
Stories That Change Us
Episode 3: Gone With The Wind by Margaret Mitchell
Riveting, controversial, and flawlessly epic, Marget Mitchel's, Gone With The Wind, has stirred the flames of adoration and outrage since its publication in 1936. Join the discussion as we unlock the secrets to vibrant historical settings, character arcs that shock us, and external tension that forces the plot to keep moving forward in this beloved, American classic.
Moderated By: Laurel Thomas
Question: what is a story that has changed your life?
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Hello, ladies, and welcome to our third episode of the Stories That Change Us podcast. I'm thrilled because this week we're going to be discussing that grand historical romance, a sweeping Civil War epic, and some would say a horrible apologetic for the slavery of the South, Gone with the Wind by Margaret Mitchell. I almost expect a response from you guys, but seriously. Here are our novel stats for Gone with the Wind. Over 30 million copies sold in 25 languages. That's amazing. It won a Pulitzer Prize in 1937, just one year after the book was published. And it features beloved characters of Scarlett O'Hara, Rhett Butler, and Mammy. and many more. So today we're just going to be breaking down some of the elements, which is what we do for Gone with the Wind, one of our favorite historic epics. So let's just start with what is our favorite quote in this very large tome.
Micah:Yes, yes,
Kat:yes, this is, this is one of those books that I, unapologetically say, is a weapon. Like, can be weaponized at any moment. Throw it at somebody, smack somebody with it. It is a thick, heavy novel.
Laurel:Okay, point
Kat:taken. Right, yeah, just suggestions for the audience.
Micah:Alright, so I'll throw out there, this is Micah, and I'll throw out, mine is again just a really simple one. Um, and there's so much going on in this novel, but I feel like kind of of the heart of all of it is the romance, and I love the quote, you don't have to like, you know, look it up or write it down, you know it, it's like, you should be kissed, and often, by someone, and who knows how. By Rhett Butler. I mean, everybody remembers that, right? You don't, like I say, you don't have to like, look it up, and it's like, don't we all just turn out.
Laurel:Right there with Frankly, I don't give a damn.
Micah:Right, you were afraid I was going to say that, right? So, I, again, I feel like that that is the, there's so many things that appeal in this story, but it's the romance. It's the romance that, like, draws us in and makes this such a beloved story.
Kat:And it's the romance of a strong man to a strong woman. Right?
Micah:Yes. Um, yes.
Kat:And I would say that neither Rhett Butler nor Scarlett O'Hara are moral characters to aspire to, but they paint such a great picture of how does a strong man woo a strong woman? How does a strong woman respond to a strong man? And what are the, what are the pros and cons of this kind of relationship? I, that, that to me is what makes me melt about that. You know, you should be kissed enough often by someone who knows how is because we strong women, that's what we want. We just are sometimes. To self conscious or honestly too afraid of abusers taking advantage of that to say, yes, please kiss me until I don't know my name, right?
Micah:That is an interesting thing about Rhett nobody's talking about Rhett Butler's high moral integrity, and yet, we are still unapologetically swooning over this man.
Kat:Yes. Right? Yes.
Micah:So, I, I think I'm gonna, Scarlett, again, nobody's holding her up as the echelon of moral integrity. And yet, she is beloved. One of the most memorable and beloved characters in... You know, American literature, for sure.
Laurel:It's very funny to me because here's my quote. This is Scarlett. If only she wasn't having a baby. Here was a God given opportunity to ride out to the mill with Ashley every day, through the lonely woods, far from the prying eyes. They could imagine the unhurried days before the war. And then, of course, she says she's not going to talk about loving him, because, you know, they'll have to run. But, I'm like, seriously! If only I wasn't having a baby!
Melissa:Well, I have to say, this is Melissa, and my favorite quote is also a, a rep quote and it is, Dear Scarlett, you aren't helpless. Anyone as selfish and determined as you are is never helpless. And I just love it. It encapsulates both her character, because she is selfish and determined, but also his because he calls her out. I mean, that's what we love about him is that he sees her darkest truth and calls her out on it, but still seems to like her. I mean, it's kind of amazing.
Micah:See, once again, Melissa, I think you hit the nail on the head, right? What do we love about Rhett? Like, he sees her. He is not fooled like all these other men who are fooled by her charms and her manipulations. It's like, Rhett sees her and loves her anyway. Isn't that what we all want? Right. Yeah.
Laurel:Well, and it would be my argument that Rhett does have integrity because he's not bound by social mores. And so much of what is driven in, Scarlet's culture is social mores that are being smashed in the gut, you know. And here we have Rhett, who's not bound in any way by those, who just speaks the truth.
Micah:So I guess that's a, when I say integrity, I guess what I was really thinking about was self sacrifice. And that's what, you know, other characters might have, that Rhett does not. There's integrity, frankness. True. But then, he is not, he is just like Scarlet. Out for Rhett.
Melissa:He's a benefit opportunist.
Micah:Yes.
Laurel:Well, because he'd be used to the hilt by Scarlet
Kat:But also I think that, you know, the thing that I love most about Rhett is, for all of his calling her out, I think that, you know, and he says this to Scarlet, he's like, we're one of a kind, like we are alike. But in being alike, he also recognizes the soft, tender places and maybe even the motivations, that might be worthy, that are driving Scarlett. Yeah. Um, because I think today, as much as Scarlett is so selfish and she's so, you know, stubborn that we miss that most of what she does is for the security of her family. Right? And we miss that. And we miss that because between...
Laurel:I missed that.
Micah:I don't miss that
Kat:now. Okay, I was like, what? Between, you know, marrying your sister's beau and using these men like they're yo yos, right? At the end of the day, especially towards the second half of the novel, she very much could have said, I'm only worried about my security and so my family can go, you know, bite it. But everything she does is about... It's about money for the family and it's about money. It's securing this land, right? And I think that, that Rhett, even if Scarlet doesn't want to admit that there's a soft tender thing to be acknowledged and, tended to, I think Rhett can see that. And it's, I think it's probably the redeeming quality about Scarlet that Rhett is probably in his head thinking. At least I like to think Rhett is in his head thinking. He's like, if I can become one of Scarlet's soft, tender things, I will have a fierce warrior at my side, who will have been worth the chase.
Micah:I love that.
Kat:That's what I think. That's what I think.
Laurel:That's very sweet. I love that.
Micah:Laurel's like, that's very sweet, but I don't buy it.
Kat:I don't buy it at all.
Laurel:Well, I mean, and we won't go here yet, but I think that the whole theme is about change. And, you know, how people fight for the past and how Scarlet is fighting for the past. with all that is within her.
Kat:I disagree.
Laurel:Okay, alright.
Kat:Fighting for the past and perceptions of the past actually leads really well into my quote. Um, my name is Kat Lewis, by the way, and this is a quote from Ashley, who is one of my least favorite characters in this novel, but Ashley says, Perhaps I want the old days back again, and they'll never come back, and I am haunted by the memory of them, and of the world falling about my ears. And I, this quote was really powerful to me because I think that in a post pandemic world, there's a lot of people who feel like the old world is never coming back. And they feel like they feel like they're continually reaching for the ghost of this thing. And to me, the juxtaposition is, Ashley is pining for the old world and Scarlet is firmly, eyes fixed ahead towards this new thing, right? And while she might miss the old world, she is like, I see too many opportunities, right?
Melissa:She's too pragmatic.
Laurel:She is the ultimate pragmatic woman, yes.
Micah:I think that that is really interesting. And you say, like, the pandemic, which of course we can feel that now, but I think that's... It's universal. I feel like every single generation longs for this, you know, you know, we talk about the lost cause myth of the South. And of course this epic just is, you know, the poster child for that, right?
Melissa:Yeah.
Micah:It better than anything else, explains and brings us into that world and helps us to understand it, which is one of the reasons why I think again, it's popularity and it's longevity. But I think there's a little bit of all of us. That universality that we all know what it's like to long for a better time or our, our perceived perception of what was a better time. That's good. And I do think too that, you know, you're exactly right that Ashley absolutely personifies that he personifies the old South in this novel. And that's actually why, I don't know about you guys, but we hate that about Scarlet. Like, why are you hanging on to Ashley? Like, why do you have this fixation with him? Like, it's, like you said about the baby, like, oh my gosh, woman, let it go! Can't you see that you have, you know, Rhett in front of you.
Melissa:So Scarlet does personified in Ashley, she does have like a romanticism toward the past, just a little bit. I mean, if we follow the analogy, the way she's been pining for him, it's almost like it's, it's never been a reality.
Laurel:Bingo. That's the theme. You know, that's where it is. It is a myth. And I think, you know, well, Melissa and I were talking earlier about, massive change in our lives. And how do we, how do we navigate massive change? For one thing, we like the old because we know how to deal with it. And yet there is a myth here and it is a strong myth. And how much does that really grab our culture and keep us in places that really resists the right kind of change. But of course, anyway. Let's not go there quite yet. What I would like to ask next is what would you consider a moment of no return in the book? A moment that stands out with visceral relief and how did that impact the character's movement, personal journey, and influence the story as a whole?
Micah:Well, this is Micah and I would say for me, the I guess I always go to the obvious point of no return is whenever she goes back and is hungry and she claws in the dirt with her fingernails and digs up, I forget whether it was radishes or potatoes or something on the ground and stuffs them in her mouth and then wretches because, you know, she can't. You know, her stomach can't stand it and she, holds up her fist to the sky and says as God is my witness, I will never go hungry again. And it's just like, I will kill, I will, well she does. You know, I will, I will marry, I will do whatever it takes to survive. Like, gone is the 16 year old.
Melissa:Life is not a game anymore.
Micah:You know, it's like, I am going to do this I'm a survivor right. And what she's seeing all around her like we'll get into this later you know like like Melanie or Ashley or you know, all these other southern ladies and gentlemen. They're not survivors. They're like, I'm not willing to do what it takes. I'll just, I'll just go, I'll just go with, go with the wind. And she's like, no, not me.
Melissa:I love that. Yeah. I love that.
Kat:Wow. That's powerful. I just got chills.
Laurel:It is. And I think that's what we love about Scarlet, you know, because she does say, look, I've made a vow here in how powerful the vow is to propel you either in the right direction or in the wrong direction. But basically, yeah, that would be visceral relief. Melissa, what about you?
Melissa:Well, I think that when Scarlett dances with Rhett at that, is it a fundraiser? She, I think that... She's like, he, I think maybe she saw him as like, just a little partner in crime. You know, somebody who, let's flaunt the silly rules of decorum together. Come on, let's do it. Let's
Kat:That's such a good perspective, Melissa. And I would actually agree with you that that's a really strong emotional turning point.
Melissa:Right.
Kat:Because she does, she finds a companion and she sees the world for what it is.
Melissa:That's right.
Kat:And even though she's like, I will never desire you, so spend your, you know, wishing well pennies on something else, right? I do think that she goes from seeing him as this rake to be despised to, this
Melissa:He understands her.
Kat:Partner. Yeah,
Micah:so an equal. Like no one is her equal.
Melissa:That's right. An equal and somebody that she can relate to when everybody else is going with the wind. Yeah.
Kat:I would say that a point of no return, another Scarlet and there's so many moments of Scarlet and these men. But, is when, Ashley comes back home from war and he and Scarlet have this little interlude out in one of the field sheds where he finally admits to Scarlet and says, I love you, but there's nothing we can do about it. And I saw that as a point of no return because I saw Scarlet turning back to some old mentalities. From this climax of, we will never be hungry again, right? And the shedding of this old self, right? I saw the old self returning in this scene in a way that haunts her through the rest of the book. If she could have said, In that moment, he is part of the old thing, and he's proven that he's loyal to this, weak wisp of a woman, um, if she could have, if she could have had that mentality. I think that the book would have been different in so many different, in so many ways, but I saw that as the, the old self bringing, bringing itself back into the forefront. And it's just, to me, it was such a good reminder of always being aware of the old thing that you have laid down
Laurel:Well, and of course, I think, you know, the whole obsession with Ashley kind of goes with the whole myth, um, that, wow, of what she believed that he was, the mythical qualities of Ashley were not enduring at all, which I think is like a little personal example of, of the South and the mores of the South. I mean, I love the South. I spent a lot of summers in the South, but the mores that held it together, we're not going to endure. And they were built, they were built on a myth just as surely as Ashley is built on a myth.
Kat:Well, and we can't talk about the myth that it was built on without saying that, like, the reason those mores could not have stood is because all of these things were built on the backs of slavery of really like the probably, um, you know, uh, for American culture, a pretty heinous. and system, right?
Micah:And some would argue it's more heinous and, you know, and of course slavery is always heinous and we know it exists today. But there's a lot of things that are uniquely heinous about the American institution of slavery. And how partially how it was, celebrated almost like protected and, and, um, and,
Melissa:preacher said it was the right thing.
Micah:It was even, yeah, even like the churches, you know, churches protecting it say, oh, this is how things should be instead of. This is just pragmatic. This is just what we have to do. There has to be winners and losers when we take over a culture and we're going to make all the people are slaves now, or there's a debt and you owe me money. So now you're my slave versus like systematically, enslaving a whole race of people and separating families and just all of the
Kat:right. So, so absolutely to that point, like that's. It could not have stood, right? Even though the greatest critique of this book is this kind of glamorous over the top, you know, you know, nostalgic view of the South, right? I
Laurel:think it was pretty clear. I mean, the whole, to me, what struck me about the novel was that the clarity of. Showing what the culture was like in the South and how it was stratified and how when the war came, I mean, it was awful, but the aftermath was equally awful when nobody knew anymore,
Kat:where are the social boundaries, political boundaries and yeah, and
Laurel:really Rhett it. I think comes out as a hero in many ways because he navigates that with an honest eye and really with courage. Um, but it going to the story, I mean, if this big story hadn't been cloaked, or if the big history hadn't been cloaked by a story, it wouldn't have had the impact. And so for me, the most, the turning point was really when Bonnie died and Rhett at that point. I realized oh This is a tragedy it's a tragedy and then I was like, okay now, I know how it's gonna end
Kat:Wow honestly, that, that I would say is the emotional turning point of the story, 100%, because Scarlett and Rhett don't come back from that. Like, they... You know, they, there were some other moments where Scarlett left or Rhett was like, I'm sick of this affair with Ashley, that they managed to kind of like come back together as a unit, but Bonnie's death really did destroy whatever it was that they had built.
Micah:And Rhett just clearly lays that out. He says it, you know, point blank. He says, if there was any hope for us, you know, it died at that point.
Laurel:Wow. Wow. Wow. And it's interesting because Rhett realizes that Scarlet, of course, is clueless.
Kat:Well, talking about, talking about... clinging to the old thing. I, I do think that, that Rhett's downfall with Scarlet is clinging to this old hope that this woman would change, right? And for all the reasons that he loved her and all the things about Scarlet that never changed, those are the very things that destroyed their love. And so as much as I can sit here and judge Ashley for representing the old thing, and representing the old South and these old mentalities, Rhett succumbed to the very same thing where he was like, I was hoping that that 16 year old, selfish, self centered, obstinate woman would have changed over all this time. It would have changed for me. And she just doesn't. And you know, and she even ends the novel kind of wiser, more mature.
Micah:I don't know. You can't say she doesn't change. I mean, really. I mean, think about that. That, that 16 year old changes dramatically.
Melissa:She changes. Her, her pragmatism sets on a different target. Her,
Kat:That's a great way to say it.
Melissa:At the beginning of the novel, at the beginning of the novel, it's about having every boy in the room like her. It's about having every conversation be about her. And then at the end of the novel, it's about feeding people, including herself. But her heart doesn't change. She stays this child.
Laurel:Well, and it's interesting, she has, like, toward the end, unless we know Scarlet at this point, we don't realize how significant it is, she has regrets. And she doesn't know what to do with regret. And she finally just says, I'll think about it tomorrow.
Melissa:So, she has a little glimmer of hope of,
Micah:A little self recollection of a little of, yeah.
Melissa:Yes.
Laurel:Very, very brief. And then she says,, I've always been able to win a man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like, totally clueless.
Melissa:A moment of self awareness
Kat:I can't remember. I do think that there's a sequel floating around out there where she does win Rhett back. Oh! And I think that ruins the whole premise of novel!
Melissa:I was gonna say, Margaret Mitchel would be like, no, no, no, no, no.
Laurel:Well, so if we took two characters, from the book and discovered, I talked about power dynamics, which, of course, we've been doing that a lot. Actually, which 2 people would you choose? And how would you say that there are power dynamics that we see in the novel?
Micah:Okay, I'm going to do a Kat here and take a really kind of. Seemingly small side characters. And I think it's really interesting about Prissy and Scarlet. Remember Prissy, who was the little, um,
Kat:house servant, house slave,
Micah:right. Um, during when Melanie is having her baby and everybody remembers just like the infuriating way that. She took her time, you know, doing what she wanted to do and Scarlet was, literally slaps her across the face. But I just think it's interesting, the dynamic, uh, I think it's, I don't know, I just think it's really interesting. Because Scarlet's the master. She should be able to tell her what to do. Or she thinks she should be able to tell her what to do and that she should just do it. And Rissy is just not gonna do it. And she's... You know, going to do her own thing and do what she wants. And I just think that that, you know, you talk about the back and forth of like, Oh, you had the power. Now I have the power. Now you have the power, you know? So in this moment of crisis. Like,
Kat:I don't, I see what you're saying, Micah. I don't know if Prissy's a great example. Because Prissy has always actually struck me as being on the spectrum. Okay. I'm dead, dead serious when I say that. And so I'm like, I, that would suck to be an autistic African trying to navigate this horrible, horrible system. But I think that same power dynamic exists between Scarlett and Mammy. Yeah, yeah. It's very interesting how Mammy can manipulate Scarlet, right? I think about that very first scene where Scarlet's determined to go to this barbecue not having eaten. And Mammy is like, over my dead body, and Mammy knows, knows the buttons to twist, right? You know, and Mammy's insistence to go with her, to Atlanta. And it's like, if, if Scarlet's the true, true master here, Mammy should be able, she should be able to say, you're not going, and that's it.
Laurel:You know, it's interesting, Kat, that you said that because Mammy is the one she wants to run back to at the end.
Kat:You know what? I was reading this very interesting article talking about how, How it was the slave governesses and, and nurse maids who really showed affection to children versus their actual parents who were so used to being harsh and abusive, right? That they couldn't be loving to their own children. And so these kids really were, really saw these, this house staff.
Laurel:Well, they had their hands on.
Kat:They did. They did. And so we kind of see that, that kind of. Daughterly maternal thing with, I think, Scarlet and Mammy in a different kind of way. Very strong.
Micah:Well, I think there's two things there. Well, one of them is, it reminds me of, like, actually between men and women. People talk a lot of time about, you know, man and household. And it's like, oh, it's like the man is the head, but the woman's the neck. Like the sides, which way the head is going to turn. And that's what kind of reminds me of like Mammy, like Mammy is going to get Scarlett to do what she wants versus the other way around because she's the neck. Right. Yeah. So that dynamic, but then also I think that, what you say is very true about, the house servants being the ones who showed the affection and you see that in The Help, right. Where that was, that was really, and that, and that was a little bit controversial too, but this idea of. The black maid showing the love to the little girl.
Laurel:They were the hands on. They got them up in the morning and changed their diapers and made sure they were fed. You know, to a child, that's love. Right. So.
Kat:But also, talking about like the, the morales of the South that caused it to crumble. You cannot dedicate your days. To master mentality and then, and then turn it off when you get home. Right. Like you can't. So if we talk about like the, the, the power of the family unit, it was already tainted. It was already crumbling.
Micah:I love that. I went. I went to D. C. with my son, like, a couple months ago, and there's like this monument to George Mason, one of the forgotten Founding Fathers, right? Like, George Mason, like, who's he? But there's this monument that people kind of forget, like, wedged in between FDR and Jefferson, and, there was this quote there about, and it was against slavery, again, thinking about a man ahead of his time, but it was talking about how, I mean, obviously it's, it's a crime against humans, but it's also a crime against their own humanity. So, again, that's why I think you're saying there, Kat, like, you can't do this to other people and it not irreparably harm your own heart and soul.
Kat:Absolutely.
Laurel:That's good.
Melissa:I loved the power dynamic between Scarlet and Melanie
Micah:oh, interesting
Melissa:because, because Melanie of course she's the object of Scarlet's fiery wrath because she wins Ashley, but, um,
Micah:well, not just because she wins, Ashley, but because she's so undeserving in Scarlett's eyes. Yes, yes, exactly. You're going to choose her? Mealy Mallet? Nothing? Instead
Kat:of me? Why?
Melissa:And, but then, I just, one of the most visceral scenes is when, Melanie is still recovering from childbirth and a, union soldier comes in and wants to rob them. And Scarlett kills him. And that is a turning point.
Micah:No, Melanie kills.
Melissa:No. Scarlett shoots him. But Melanie is. Holding up that big, huge sword like she would have tried. She would have,
Micah:but she wasn't strong enough.
Melissa:She wasn't, but she was, she was exerting it in it. In other words, it was in her heart.
Kat:She had that same heart of valor of
Melissa:I'm going to jump in and protect here. I'm going to go down. Yeah, I'll go down fighting. That's right. And that was, There were so many moments where Scarlet had to give Melanie the scrudging respect. And that is the first, or I think it's the first.
Kat:You know, and what I love about the power dynamic between Scarlet and Melanie, is I see Melanie as Scarlet's mother reincarnate. And so for Scarlet to have valued her mother's... Piety and devotion and kindness and compassion. All of those things that we see in Melanie, right? Um, and Scarlet views Melanie with such contempt and just kind of like, bleh. I, you know, um, it's interesting how Scarlet cannot see that Melanie literally could have been her mother's protégé. And How did Scarlet miss that? And Scarlet bemoans in herself, she's like, I wish I was more like my mother, right? My mother is looking down from heaven and just is horrified. And I'm like, have you looked in at Melanie's eyes lately? Is she my queen? She's gonna cover it up.
Micah:No, Melanie wasn't covering up. She genuinely loved Scarlet. She really did. She wasn't secretly disdainful of Scarlet. No, no. She, she saw Scarlet's strength and she knew its value and she loved Scarlet.
Melissa:It was almost like, it was one of those things that could have gone either way where Melanie genuinely loving Scarlet could have made Scarlett hate her even more. It's like, how can you be so good to like me, even though I hate you?
Laurel:Even at the end, Rhett goes to Melanie and basically spills his guts. And Melanie, she just, la la la, I can't hear this, I don't believe this. And you know, basically he's telling her everything. Because she is the lone person, other than Belle, we don't know Belle that well, that Rhett can actually cry out to. And, um, so it's so interesting that Melanie just cannot see.
Micah:The bad side.
Laurel:She can't see the bad side.
Kat:I do think that Melanie chooses not to see, though. Because, you know, there's that moment when, when Rhett makes Scarlet go to Ashley's birthday party after she's been caught red handed kissing, making out with, you know, Ashley. And, Melanie... Has such, um, to me, she's got such a forbearance and such a maturity that she's like, y'all might be surprised, but like, I have eyes, I see this tension here, and for whatever Melanie's reasons were for not shanking Scarlett at the first, at the first moment. And for whatever reason, Melanie chooses love or she chooses to look the other way. Or she chooses, maybe she's like, Maybe, I don't, I mean, I don't know. There's so many, we could spend a whole hour on Melanie.
Laurel:So are you saying, so are you saying that Melanie is unique? Uh, our original aspect of Gone with the Wind,
Kat:just, just like what we were saying about, I think it was Outlander, how the world itself is so fraught with conflict that you, she, so she chose a really great world to throw these characters in, but every character is so complex, right? So
Micah:I think what's so unique about Gone with the Wind is what you just said. It's the world. It's the authenticity. It's a recreating of this world. Because again, lots of people have written lots of historical fiction, historical romance, but Margaret Mitchell recreated for us this world of the pre Civil War and post Civil War past that was just so... compelling and so authentic to the time. So I think that's, again, that's what I think is the stories that change us. Bridgerton will never do it because,
Kat:because they're just, they're just putting, you
Micah:know, like, our world into another time and put rewriting the names and instead of recreating the thought processes and helping us to see that. So I think that's what is unique and what's really hard to do and which, Probably no one else, I would say, has done even close to as well as well as Gone With The Wind,
Kat:and that's, that's such a beautiful, um, a beautiful point in favor of this book. Because it's that very thing, the fact that Margaret Mitchell is writing from a nostalgic point of view. She's like, this is a world that's dead and will never come back. And we're gonna, we will never regain this lush, opulent, sweeping, charismatic world. And a lot of people really despise her for it because they're like, yeah, this lush sweeping opulent world that was built on the back of slavery. And here's the deal. I think that in order to not go back to those mentalities, you have to know exactly what it looked like. You need it and and all this visceral color in order to one, understand that mentality. So we don't accidentally. Trip our way back to it.
Micah:Exactly. That's exactly right Kat. I mean like if, it's so easy for us to look back and say how could they have done this? Like, oh, I would never do that. Like, oh, they must have been so evil.
Laurel:Exactly.
Micah:And instead of saying like, oh, no, this is what it looked like. Look, look how romantic and appealing it was. Do you see now? Like again, the danger of how you could fall into that same
Laurel:Well, and I think it's what makes it the I mean, as a purist for historical fiction, it's just, it's just one of the best because she's not preaching one way or the other. She's telling a story and it's intricately woven not only authentic setting, but authentic people. And even with Melanie, I just don't feel like she's trying heavy handedly preaching to us about, you know, Melanie's sweetness, because really to me, if we're just going to pick out our little character roulette person, I mean, Melanie, to me, I got frustrated with her. I was like, seriously, girl, but she was there for a reason. She was a mirror. To reflect Scarlet and vice versa. I mean, they were two characters that absolutely had to be there. We did not see, I mean, we saw, um, Scarlet's pragmatism in a lot of ways, but when it was against Melanie. It was like polar opposite here. And, and the funny thing is usually I would, you know, I'd be like, Scarlet, quit being such a, you know, whatever. But I got irritated with Melanie. I really did.
Micah:When did you get it irritated? I was like,
Laurel:girl, girl, open your eyes. I mean, are you such a romantic, such an idealist that even in the end. So I'm not saying that she's a bad character, but in the end when, when Rhett was just pouring out, I mean, he was sobbing on her lap, pouring out all this junk. She couldn't hear it. She couldn't acknowledge it. She couldn't do anything about it. B a safe place, which she was,
Kat:Okay. So if we're going to use Melanie as our character that that we talk about, as much as I can fault Ashley for his, ideology for the Old South. I think that from this perspective, so too can we fault Melanie for her loyal ideology towards the new thing, the potential of people. Whatever, right? Because I remember in the very beginning of the book, you know, when they, when, when they go to twelve oaks. For the barbecue, whispers about Melanie and Melanie's family, like they don't own a slaves. Which just like establishes Melanie's character is like, she's like, I am a humanitarian
Melissa:she's above it.
Kat:Yeah, she's above it. Or maybe she just sees the evil for what it is. But it's that same ideology that that if at some point, Melanie could have just had a conversation with Scarlett that said. Scarlet, I love you. I respect you. You're so amazing. Leave my man alone. Right? There, there's an ideology that Melanie
Laurel:I won't cut you. No, no, no, no.
Kat:Laurel!
Laurel:Sorry. I'm just saying.
Kat:But there's an ideology that ultimately she dies, Melanie dies clinging to, that could have turned the story in a different direction if Melanie For whatever reason, had had the power, the courage, the perspective to have said, no, all these things are happening under my nose. And as much as I am a pacifist and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, well, maybe not a pacifist because she was lugging around a sword ready to chop somebody in half, you know, um, but I would almost say that Melanie's ideology is what set these characters on that path because Melanie was the turning point. Melanie could have put a stop to it. Melanie could have said, Ashley, you and I are moving out of Atlanta because I know what you're doing with that woman, right? Um, but she didn't. And so there's... There's something to be critiqued there.
Laurel:Well, I mean, I just think that, I mean, again, it's, she's a layered character. And so it's beautifully, I mean, Melanie is beautifully related and she's certainly a sweet spot compared to Scarlett. So there's that. Yeah. But so we are, we've covered lots of territory. Um. You know, we didn't actually do our character roulette, except we did talk about Melanie, which was very interesting. But is there anything else that anyone would like to add about any insight as far as Gone with the Wind? Anything that you feel like maybe we didn't discuss that we needed to?
Melissa:Um, I read this several years ago and brushing up for our little talk here. I just kind of picked some passages and went through them and, if you took out all dialogue tags, you could tell who's talking and her and that was it's interesting One of the one a little lesson I got Lou Bernie he wrote The long and far away gone was his kind of claim to fame here in Oklahoma Went to a little seminar with him and it was in 2016. It was right About the time of like Hillary and Trump were debating and he said, think about that if you just saw a transcript with no, you know, with no dialogue tags, you would know for sure which of those two people was talking and he said, make that your goal, as a writer, that people can always tell by the character's voice and she does that so well She does that so well, especially and also I just have to say Clark Gable Just so in inhabited
Kat:Rhett Butler
Micah:She did she did she
Melissa:yes she did she did but there is something about just the very subtle I mean, we're not here to talk about the movie, but, um, there's just something that, I mean, there was a little grin in so much of what she wrote. Just that little smirk, just that little, uh, tease, a little gleam in the character's eye. And he did that really well, but she wrote it first and she did a great job.
Micah:So I guess I just hope that all of us in our writing can just get a little, little bit of distraction of, of that, of the great Margaret Mitchell and how she expressed that world and those character, built those characters.
Laurel:Well, I, I think about, Donald Moss and writing, how to write a breakout novel. And he basically says, take your story, take your, take your characters, especially, and then amp them up. About, you know, 15 degrees. Okay, amp them up another You know, 30 will amp them up from who they are so that they stand out. I think of what Kat said in Visceral Relief. You know, that's what you want your characters to stand out. And so, I mean, we can make like moral things about, you know, Melanie or this and that. But really, she was a character well crafted. Because she did what she was supposed to do in the story. And all
Micah:of them did. That's what it is. All of them were so well crafted
Laurel:so Wow Anyway, it's been so much fun ladies.
Kat:It has!
Laurel:I hope you all have enjoyed this riveting discussion So thanks for joining us and be sure to come back for the next episode of stories that change us
