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Stories That Change Us
A lively discussion between four friends and authors as they breakdown the most popular fiction from the last century. Join us as we identify the key aspects of storytelling, character development, and social analysis that have caused these stories to resonate through the decades and, in doing so, help novice and seasoned writers craft bestselling fiction of their own.
Stories That Change Us
Episode 6: The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis
Part religious satire, part social commentary, and wholly fictional genius, The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis is a deeply stirring epistolary that has prompted much conversation about the state of humanity since it was first published in 1942. As a work of storytelling brilliance, join us as we evaluate the literary elements that Lewis employed to give us greater insight into the motivations of demons, angels, and our own souls in a way that is not preachy and extremely entertaining.
Moderated By: Micah Leydorf
Question: what is a story that has changed your life?
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and welcome to Stories That Change Us, our sixth episode of the podcast. I'm Micah Leydorf, and I'm here with my wonderful writer friends, I'm Melissa Grace, Kat Lewis, Laurel Thomas. And today I am so excited that we are reading one of my very favorite of all time books by my, one of my very favorite all time authors, The Screwtape Letterss by C. S. Lewis. So, just a little bit of background. If you don't know who C. S. Lewis is. I guess there might be some people who might not know one of the best authors of the 20th century, especially Christian authors of the 20th century. This book was written in 1942. It was written before his most popular work of the Chronicles of Narnia, his children's series. It was originally published as, um, articles in The Guardian from May to November in 1941, and then published as a book in 1942. It's in a, what they call it epistolary novel. So done in letters from a fictional satirical demon,Screwtape, to his nephew, Wormwood. Throughout it, it gives commentary on modern culture and the nature of temptation and all sorts of things. And, um, we'll just start off with, um, Our question that we like to ask the very first is like, what quotes stood out to you ladies I'm assuming you guys have all read it before.
Kat Lewis:No, this was my first time slogging through The Screwtape Letterss
Micah Leydorf:Oh, Kat. Come on, you enjoyed it.
Kat Lewis:To be honest, I did enjoy it. I just, um, it was not a book that I could read fluidly. I had to read it and then process it and then come back and read it and process it. And I have filled up a journal with all of the things learned and, you know, assumed from The Screwtape Letters. So I did enjoy it, but it is, um, it was not, it was not like a read in one sitting kind of book.
Micah Leydorf:Right, right. You know, it's actually interesting that you say that, Kat, because I have a personal theory about it. I feel like most Christians have heard of it and probably have read some of it. But I think very few people have actually read all of it because of exactly what you said. Like you read one letter and you're like, Oh, okay, that was a lot. I'm going to need to sit with that for a while. And, you guys know, I actually have come out with my first novel. Actually I just published it at the end of last year and it's kind of getting a little bit of steam right now. Yeah, I know I actually have over a hundred women, um, will be starting on Wednesday in a Linton, um, discussion group. That's amazing. All across the country and in Canada and England. But how that's relevant to the Screwtape Letters is that my book wasn't inspired by The Screwtape Letterss, but in one of our WriterCon conferences, that's where we all connected, um, I got some input from Renee Gutteridge, one of our, um, teachers there. Some, you know, personal one on one critique. And she's like, um, you know, you need a little bit of plot and, you know, like more character arc and development. And I'm like, Oh, no, this is, this is not fiction. This is just really a clever way to write an essay. And she's like, well, unless you believe that demons write letters, like you're writing fiction. And so that was when I was like, before mine was kind of more straight, like Screwtape. I thought, oh, I just want somebody to write, and I love this book so much. I want someone to write something from, I feel like women are probably tempted different than men. And I feel like Americans are tempted different from English people in the 1940s and so I wanted something up to date. But mine is quite different now because it has um, It does have plot and it does have three characters, Angel's voice and then a woman's journal to drive that action forward, which are all these techniques that I learned partially from going to these conferences and hanging out with you ladies. So, so like I say, so my book is named The Unseen Battle: An Unexpected Love Story. And like I say, it's very much inspired from The Screwtape Letters but like I say, what you said, Kat, is exactly kind of the motivation was, Oh, okay, we need something that actually keeps people going from chapter to chapter and they don't just stop. It makes it a little bit easier and not quite so condensed. How about you, Melissa? What did you, what was your first impressions?
Melissa Grace:Um, I loved it because I just feel like the voice is so very clever. Just like, I think with, um, your novel, Micah, I always just loved, I loved the, the voices, you know, the demon voices that sounds bad, but, um, and the angel voices, you know, the, the, their style. I, I just think they're so entertaining. You portray the characters with how the, the angel voice is so very full of grace and the demon voice is so full of sarcasm and derogatory insults and things like that. And, um, that, that was what I enjoyed about the original also. Just, just the voice. I
Micah Leydorf:learned there's a term for that. It's demonic ventriloquism is apparently the term that he coined this literary device and it's been replicated in at least, you know, over a dozen different books since then. But I think that's what you're referring to.
Laurel Thomas:It's interesting if you read the introduction, you get a clear view of C. S. Lewis and he said, it's not good to focus on evil and keep in mind that everything the evil one says is a lie. So, I thought that really, it was crafted so brilliantly that everything is a lie. And he talked about doctrine, and basically doctrine is just, what do we believe? And how close is it to reveal truth? And so, of course, that is what shapes us, what we believe, and therefore it shapes our culture at some point. So, um, anyway, that's a long answer, but I thought the introduction to me Help me read the rest of it. Cause I was like, I don't really care, you know, I don't really care what this demon has to say, but the whole shaping of what we believe, I think was the impetus for this book.
Melissa Grace:Yeah, he said that that was so there's a, there is a, my, uh, addition that I read, there is a toast at the end. And it was written like 20 or 30 years later. And he says in the little description or introduction, I did not want to go back to, as you know, they put the coin, the phrase demon ventriloquism. I did not want to do that. They've been asking me to write this followup for a very long time. And I didn't want to, because he didn't want to hang out in that headspace. But, um, It's, it's all, it's very good. And, and I, I think that is what I find really fascinating about the concept is that when I read things in this book and I say, Oh, that's a lie I am falling for. Absolutely. I mean, that is what makes it still powerful after all these years.
Micah Leydorf:I think that's what it's all about. It's all about deception and it's all about recognizing the lies that you believe. And just like you said, Laurel, it's about what we believe, but we don't even know what we believe. That's what the demons are, are saying. It's like, don't let them actually think that they're actually believing this because if they do, well, the gig is up. Um, so I don't know what quotes you guys picked out, but like one of my favorites. I mean, the hard thing about this is it's all so good that I hate to be like, why don't I just take out that small part and read this whole letter, but I will not read the whole letter. But there's a kind of famous one that says, I now see that I spent most of my life in doing neither what I ought nor what I like". Like, so that's kind of earlier on. And then it concludes with,"It does not matter how small the sins are provided. that their cumulative effect is to edge the man away from the light and out into the nothing. Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick. Indeed, the safest road to hell is the gradual one, the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts, your affectionate uncle screw tape". Um, so whenever I had the idea of writing my own book, the kind of the impetus of it was actually this idea of, Oh, okay. Like to think like a strategist, it wasn't, um, it was, I was going to take an action that I was convinced was good. And I thought, Oh, it wasn't that I was going to do it, but I thought it was so good. And I thought, Oh, if I was, a demon, or if I was Satan, of course, that's what I would do. I wouldn't say, Oh, hey, here, come get some candy and get in the van. And dear little girl, you know,
Melissa Grace:Help me find my puppy.
Micah Leydorf:Come do this evil thing. It would be like, no, you know, this is the good thing. And so I just thought, well, you know, maybe if I started thinking that way, that would be helpful to reveal these lies. Cause you know what they say, like on G. I. Joe or whatever, Knowledge is half the battle. Once you, once you unveil it, you're halfway there. So, are there any quotes, other quotes that stood out to you guys?
Melissa Grace:Well, I loved this one. It's, it's, Not far away from the one that you just quoted. Um, again, this is Screwtape writing to his nephew, the Enderdemon. Of course, I know that, oh, and, um, for anyone not familiar with the book, the enemy is God. Right. Um,"Of course I know that the enemy also wants to detach men from themselves, but in a different way, remember always that he really likes the little vermin and sets an observed value on the distinctness of every one of them. When he talks of their losing their selves, he only means abandoning the clamor of self will. Once they have done that he really gives them back all their personality and both. I'm afraid sincerely that when they are wholly his, they will be more themselves than ever. Hence, while he is delighted to see them sacrificing even their innocent wills to his, he hates to see them drifting away from their own nature for any other reason." That to me, that's just a very grace filled and wonderful description of God's affection for us as individuals. It's very personal. It's very individual that he really did, you know, make us and delight in us in all our individuality. I think that that, that was a theme that I, that I saw underlying everything was, um, just keep pushing the counterfeits, keep pushing the counterfeits because. The enemy quote unquote God himself wants them to really be happy But if we can distract them with our counterfeits, then we can keep them from that.
Kat Lewis:Yeah, I think um that the relevance of this It's a novel to a modern audience is understanding the psychology of evil and how evil is not for you. Like there's so much in this world that will tell, that will sell you the counterfeit and say that it's healthy, right? That'll sell you the nasty molding McDonald's cheeseburger and say that it's, you know, it's a superfood, right? And, um,
Micah Leydorf:And I'll sell you a hamburger and tell you it's beef.
Melissa Grace:Doesn't even have to be a super beef, just beef.
Kat Lewis:Exactly. And for the modern audience that does not just want to be told what to do, they want to underspeak, they want to understand, you know, why a certain course of action is good or bad. Don't dabble in evil, but do understand what evil's priority is. And priority is not your wealth. It's not your thriving. It's not your prosperity. And I just think that there's a lot of intellect in how these demons are. They understand what motivates us. They understand what motivates God. They understand what motivates Satan. And you're like, demons ain't dumb. But the quote that stood out to me, there were so many, there were so many. To be honest, I felt like every other chapter I needed to get on TikTok and just like rant. But I was like, no, Kat, control yourself, get through it, make it through. But the one that I thought was most telling is, um, It's a quote that says,"It is funny how mortals always picture us as putting things into their minds. In reality, our best work is done by keeping things out". Yes. And I just think that it's very, that, that For all the generations that have these barriers up towards, you know, religion, they have these barriers up towards faith. We think that that makes us. More evolved than than generations of the past, right? The fact that we have looked at religion and we found it lacking and therefore we put up these barriers and we just forget the very simple premise of the Bible that says."Idleness is the devil's playground". You put up barriers because you think that it's a sign of control, but really you're creating barriers around the nothingness of your personal theology that doesn't exist. And that is exactly where these demons are thriving. We're not dripping, you know, um, Puritanism or purity culture to you. We actually, we're, we actually love it that your mind, your spiritual plane is an empty, fluffy cloud, right? That's what we like. We like clouds around here. It's better to have questions than to subscribe to nothingness. Hmm.
Laurel Thomas:Well, that goes into, of course, this is very short, but, uh,"For suspicion often creates what it suspects". And it's talking about, Ooh, that's good. Good suspicion. I and you know, the whole thing that so often in relationships, relationships can be so good and so valuable, but you bring suspicion in, or you bring offense in or hurt feelings. And all of a sudden, it doesn't matter how intellectual you are. You are operating on a plane that agrees with the accuser of the brethren. And it doesn't matter how smart we are, or whether we can make it all the way through screw tape letters, we're, we're immediately in a snare.
Kat Lewis:So, and just this idea that we think that suspicion Is an indication of our ability to sniff out, right? Sniff out the lie or sniff out the missing piece, but you're like, no, the more, the more you walk through this life, skeptical and cynical, the more you'll find exactly what you're looking for.
Laurel Thomas:Well, I think about sometimes we, that we have a wash over our minds that we're not aware of, and a lot of times it comes even generationally. So, my mom was divorced in the early 60s, and she was, it was an awful marriage, you know, it was 10 years, it was bad. So, I remember just recently. I heard a question and it had to do with an accusation and basically I was like, Oh my gosh, the same accusing voice that I hear over and over in my mind is what my mother heard over and so I was raised under that paradigm that you Uh, you can be as careful as you want to, but it's not enough. Or basically, I don't know how to say an accusing, uh, accusing spirit, but it is, it is basically just a mean kind of thing. It condemns other people. It condemns you. It, it, it's a response. It was a response on her part to trauma and shame. So, to me, that was a stratagem of the enemy that was unveiled.
Melissa Grace:And that's what I feel like that that that hits the nail on the head about just the beauty of this book Just that it does help us see The the lenses that we look through
Micah Leydorf:So when we talk about craft, right. And we talk about like, what does CS, what does this book do? What is The Screwtape Letterss What aspects of the craft of writing was exceptionally well done in this book? I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind is. Voice. Right. But, uh, but what are your guys thoughts? I mean, it's a little bit different because it is an epistolary style. So there really is only one voice, but, um, and again, I said it was originally written as multiple articles, so it doesn't have the same flow of story, but what do you feel like are the aspects of craft that C. S. Lewis I
Laurel Thomas:think he had to have a community that he talked to about this. I have a hard time believing that all of this genius just came from a solitary man. Think that probably had a community. They talked about things like this. Oh yeah.
Micah Leydorf:We do know the Inklings is a really famous, um, group. They met at a pub in Oxford called, um, the Eagle and the Child, or the Bird and the Baby was its little nickname and it was J. R. R. Tolkien and, um, C. S. Lewis and a handful of other contemporary writers. And actually this book is actually, um, dedicated to J. R. R. Tolkien, and they had very spirited debates, not necessarily about this, but about their, their fantasies. They had different ideas of fantasy writing and what was appropriate. I think it's well known that, um, Tolkien did not like the Chronicles of Narnia
Kat Lewis:at all.
Micah Leydorf:They were super childish and, you know, overrated for children versus the tomes that are, you know, the Lord of the Rings. So, but I think those very and also, I mean, it's less well known. I think that Tolkien was very influential in Lewis's conversion. So Lewis was a absolutely adamant atheist. He left his faith at age 15 and did not come back to the church until age 32. And if in his, um, biography,Surprised By Joy, he actually refers to himself as the most reluctant convert, but he came like kicking and screaming to the faith. Then. And like I say, Tolkien was a big part of that. So you're exactly right, Laurel, in that, um, there was a community. And so I, I bet you he was reading, Hey, this is my latest chapter. What do you guys actually, okay. That's going to make me actually like have to read this funny little quote. This is for all the authors out there, right? Because, um, he makes a little nod to us and probably to himself and to his fellow inklings as well. He says, um, they're talking about it's so important to keep people from actually doing anything. So, it said,"it remains to consider how can we can retrieve this disaster. The great thing is to prevent his doing anything, as long as he does not convert it into action. It does not matter how much he thinks about his new repentance. Let the brute wallow in it. Let him, if he has any bent that way, Even write a book about it". That is often an excellent way of sterilizing the seeds, which the enemy plants in a human soul. Let him do anything but act. So, and then it goes down a little bit longer and then it says,"the more he feels without acting, the less he will ever be able to act. And in the long run, the less he will be able to feel."
Melissa Grace:Wow.
Kat Lewis:Yeah. I think that one of the things that, uh, C. S. Lewis does so well, and it's something that we've touched on with some of the other heavy books that we've read, is his use of humor, right? I mean, you cannot read this book without evaluating your life at, at a basic level. And it's hard. It would feel very preachy if it was just these demons, you know, you know, listing out or if it would feel, it would feel very un, unnatural if these demons were just, you know, debating across the table. And this idea of like, these demons are like, kind of laughing at us. And it creates a lot of momentum. Like you're kind of, For me, I was reading for the next humorous bit, you know what I mean? Like I was like, okay, when is he going to drop a zinger? But then also I got very, I became very indignant, quite indignant, actually, at how much these demons were laughing at us. I was like, now wait just a minute, Woodworm or Wormwood, or whatever your name is. The fact that, you know, in the moment, you can be convicted and still laugh, right? That that is skill. That is skill.
Micah Leydorf:I think you're exactly right. Kat. That is definitely something that he is so masterful at. And I think it's what makes this again, this perennial bestseller. If it wasn't humorous, if he wasn't so clever, if it wasn't so witty. It would not stick with us the way
Kat Lewis:it would just, it would land like a sermon would land. That's right.
Melissa Grace:And just a long, well, then I think another aspect of his talent is, this is something that was very poignant that stood out to me. To bring in these things that again, point back to the love of God. And, uh, let's see. Oh, um. Just reading this quote"when the creation of man was first Muted and when even at that stage the enemy again, that's God Freely confessed that he foresaw a certain episode about a cross our father", Very that's the devil"very naturally sought an interview and asked for an explanation The enemy gave no reply except for a to produce the cock and bull story about disinterested love, which he has been circulating ever since. This our father naturally could not accept. He implored the enemy to lay his cards on the table and gave him every opportunity. He admitted that he felt a real anxiety to know the secret, the secret in the previous passage about why he would care so much about humans. And the enemy replied,"I wish with all my heart that you did". And to me, that just, that was just such a poignant moment. I just thought he did such a good job.
Kat Lewis:That's just very interesting how, like, if he's going to allow an interview with the ultimate enemy, right. Who he has declared as his enemy, how much more willing is he? To, you know, grant you access to himself, right? You, who he tells you, he loves you, right?
Micah Leydorf:yeah, yeah, well, this it's interesting you found that scene so poignant, Melissa, because, um, it kind of leads into one of our other questions that we always like to ask here at Stories That Change Us about the visceral moments, name it a story that's Um, a moment in the story that stood out with this rural relief and explain the storytelling techniques that help us to be a successful scene. And again, you might think, okay, with this epistolary style, it's difficult to create a scene, but that's an example right there of a scene. And I will just kind of throw out there just for good measure, because you mentioned. Um, waiting into theological waters Kat that, um, dangerous stuff. Well, this is fiction. I say that with my own book, because I heard a critique from someone recently and they said, I don't believe that demons talk that way to each other. And I'm like, Uh, yeah, I don't believe that either. It's fiction, it's satire, it's a literary device. So I don't think that just because C. S. Lewis wrote that, I don't think that he's actually saying that that Jesus and the devil, or God and the devil do talk that way to one another. So just a caveat for everyone out there. But that's the beauty of fiction. I mean, that's the beauty of story is that we can allegory, yeah. That we can discuss these things. It gives us a, a literary device. It gives us a way to kind of look at these things in a different way.
Melissa Grace:Well, my moment that, just stood out, it's the very last chapter. And, um, all the letters to the junior demon Wormwood are okay, trying to coach him into snagging this one soul. And after, you know, the end result, and I won't tell you just in case, you know, for spoilers, but, um, He says, uh, how mistakenly now that all is lost, you come whimpering to ask me whether the terms of affection in which I address you meant nothing from the beginning. Far from it. Rest assured, my love for you and your love for me are as like as two peas. I have always desired you as you pitiful fool desired me. The difference is that I am the stronger. I think they will give you to me now or a bit of you. Love you? Why yes, as a teeny little morsel as ever I grew fat on. I mean, to me it just, just encapsulated this Screwtape's character perfectly.
Kat Lewis:Um, a moment that stood out in visceral relief for me is when Screwtape was addressing the issue of like pleasure, right? And you kind of mentioned this earlier, Melissa, about how like God's a God who wants us to be happy. The enemy, AKA God wants us to be happy. He wants us to enjoy our lives. And this moment, really, just really struck me. And I kept going back to this passage, but it says,"Never forget that when we are dealing with any pleasure in its healthy and normal and satisfying form, we are, in a sense, on the enemy's", God's,"ground. I know we have won many a soul through pleasure. All the same, it is his invention, not ours. He made all the pleasures. All our research so far has not enabled us to produce one. All we can do is to encourage the humans to take the pleasures which our enemy has produced at times or in any ways in every degree which he has forbidden. And, um, in a, uh, I think I don't want to use a word so strong as a hedonistic culture, but we might, you know, chew on that. Um, this idea that like, the good things, enjoyment, dancing, music, sex, food, like those are gifts from God, right? Satan has not created a single ding dang one of them. And that was revelation I think it changes your ability to make a different choice, right?
Laurel Thomas:Yes, really profound.
Melissa Grace:Yeah, and it there's what I can't find it right now, but there is. There's a place in, um, Screwtape Letters that, um, Screwtape says about the enemy, Father God, at heart, he's a hedonist. Right. And at first that just made me go, what?
Micah Leydorf:What the demons say is not reliable. Unreliable. Talk about literary devices.
Laurel Thomas:I think there's a, yeah, I, my favorite one, I don't know what's my favorite, but I thought it was interesting. It's almost at the end."All said and done, my friends, it will be an ill day for us. If what most humans mean by religion ever vanishes from the earth, it can send us the truly delicious sins". So, I mean, I think that there's a Greek mindset Where you know, it's all it has to all be spirit because if it's not spirit, that's not holy But that's never the way God thought God was the Hebrew God And the Hebrew God believed that it was spirit, soul, and body, that one wasn't better than the other or more holy than the other, that the whole package was purchased by a price of the blood of his son, and that the whole package would live as a demonstration of his goodness. So, yeah, when we get all involved in rules and laws and, you know, I sent my, so I'm, this is, sorry, Mary, I'm not call you out here. Just a little, my little sister, I sent her a pair of jeans. And she said for birthday, she said, I can wear these if I stop eating dessert. And I said, I'm returning them now. Because you know, there is a joy to living that I think we tend to say, no, it's not spiritual enough. Isn't it spiritual enough? And yet, it's plenty spiritual to have a cup of hot tea with a friend.
Melissa Grace:And I feel like I can just hear Screwtape saying something to the effect of, um, Yes, um, and that's why we're so, you know, as, as, you know, Satan and his cohorts were so against that. We don't want you to see that God is truly interested in, you know, your, your friendships and you know, just you being fully yourself and fully enjoying yourself and fully, you You know, doing what he put you on this earth to do. Um, and that's why we are so busy about corrupting and, you know, trying to take, you know, like a good friendship and twist it into something that is not holy.
Micah Leydorf:So here's a quote from Screwtape saying about Wormwood's Blunders. He said,"You allowed the patient to read a book he really enjoyed, because he enjoyed it and not in order to make clever remarks about it to his new friends. And in the second place, you allowed him to walk to the old mill and have tea there, a walk through the country, which he really likes and taken alone. In other words, He's You allowed him to real positive pleasures. Were you so ignorant? So as not to see the danger in this". So I think that's what you're saying. It's all so good. It's hard to take a little bit because it's just such a good job of just saying this over and over again. And the thing about CS Lewis is he's just such a wordsmith and he's just such a brilliant mind that he says all these super complicated concepts that sound so simple when he says them. And yet, then when we try to repeat them, we're all fumbling.
Melissa Grace:It takes us 10 minutes to say what he said.
Micah Leydorf:But he said so simply. Yes. Yes. So that's what's so beautiful and wonderful about.
Kat Lewis:I think a storytelling technique, I think I can't remember what question this is, what number question this is, Micah, but. For authors who are writing material that has like spiritual significance in the sense that we are writing about a journey that we came through and a lesson that we came to, revelation, addressing social issues or social norms, whatever. Um, I can only imagine how weighty his life was as he wrote this. I can only imagine. Um, like Micah, I remember when you were writing your novel, you, one of the things that you continually said in critique group is you're like, I want to be careful. Like, I want to steward this. Like this is, I'm not just writing this as a rant to the American church or rant to Believers, this is, this is an assignment here. And, you know, are people going to read it and they're going to see that it's women's fiction and that it's fun and da da da da da. You took it very seriously. And I just, I don't know, just as, uh, as an author who gets to beta read a lot of junk, a lot of things that don't have eternal significance, you know, and that really aren't putting positive, healthy theologies back into the world. Thinking about C. S. Lewis's life, we don't know the spiritual attacks that he was under. We don't know, like, we don't know the things that he had to do to keep himself out of these deep, dark wells, right? And I just think about good work and good writing should cost you something. And that's not the sexy theology that you'll see. For somebody selling their package or their author, marketing package, they're not telling you that like, you know, that you should be pouring something out onto the page that that requires that you have community that helps pull you back out of, dark places, right? And maybe not every book, maybe not every book needs to be like that, but just, you know, I just think about, okay, what am I writing? And being very careful and intentional about what am I putting back out into society? Am I just doing another Cinderella retelling, right? Or is there a deeper truth that I want my readers to, to marinate it? With, and do I want to be so eloquent with it that it is simple yet powerful. The execution of it may not be simple to me. I may have agonized over, I think again, about Micah's journey, writing her novel. It went through, I think probably a dozen iterations.
Micah Leydorf:It only took seven years. I
Laurel Thomas:was thinking a dozen a little more than a dozen.
Kat Lewis:Yeah. Yeah. You're like, you're like, I did. So I don't know. I'll just. I don't think every book needs to be a book that has you on your therapist bench.
Micah Leydorf:But what did they say? Writing is easy. Just open a vein and bleed.
Laurel Thomas:Isn't that the gist of why we're here? Stories that change that changes.
Melissa Grace:Well, then that makes me think, see us. Okay. If he's writing things that make me look in a mirror and say, Oh my goodness, what am I falling for? What am I? What I he's revealed something to me. He saw it first. He saw it in himself first, and he is being authentic and. and very vulnerable to share it with the rest of us so that we can see it.
Laurel Thomas:Yeah, I can remember which one it was. Um, it could have been Prince Caspian, but the kids are in a school that is it's a new experiment, experimental school, and these bullies are ruling and reigning because you can't tell a bully that they're wrong and that they can't be a bully because you might hurt their psyche. And I've, you know, he had social commentary even in his children's novels.
Micah Leydorf:He was very much writing from a place of criticism of the English school system. Especially that whole proposal, the screw tapes proposal you were referring to that was added as an addendum in 1959. Yes. Yeah. That's what that, that was. Well, I think we should probably get to our last question, but we've been talking about it this entire time because the last question is about social truths and what truths about society or the human experience are explored, confirmed, and challenged in this novel. And that's basically, all this novel is about. Right? Right?
Laurel Thomas:I think that's true.
Micah Leydorf:But, um, and so this, this one has been a little bit different. And I, um, appreciate all of you guys being willing to read it. Because again, it's a little bit challenging to even call it a novel, right? Because it's, you know, it's, it's 31, um, letters. Um, and, um, but are there any particular truths about the human experience?
Melissa Grace:Well, I loved this. It's kind of in the first third of the book; it's him talking again about, um, to his protege, Screwtape writing to his protege about how to best capture this soul. Um,"This dim uneasiness needs careful handling. If it gets too strong, it may wake him up and spoil the whole game. On the other hand, if you suppress it entirely, which by the by the enemy will probably not allow you to do, we lose an element in the situation which can be turned to good If such a feeling is allowed to live, But not allowed to become irresistible and flower into real repentance. It has one invaluable tendency. It increases the patient's reluctance to think about the enemy". And I just, I mean, that was a mirror to me. That was a, that was, that was a moment where I looked in a mirror and thought, okay I have felt that dim uneasiness and ignored it.
Micah Leydorf:It's made you not want to write about God.
Melissa Grace:Yeah, that's made me. Yes. Yes. I mean, you know, by his grace, it's been a long time, but I do remember that part of my journey.
Kat Lewis:I think that what you're talking about goes straight into the truth that I have kind of plucked and that I will be circulating amongst my friends is he says that, um, a moderated religion is as good as no religion at all. Like you think about this dim uneasiness within religious culture, where, when we are around people that we're uncomfortable with, or that we On a basic level, fundamentally disagree with, but we don't know how to interact with them. Our initial tendency is avoidance, right? Is to let the dumb uneasiness kind of fester, but we never actually like look at, look it in the face and say, okay, let's deal with this thing. From Baptist and Methodist and Katholic and all the little ways that like, You know, we look across the table at each other and we'll be very polite to each other's face in the back of our mind, we'll go, my views on, you know, sex, drugs, and rock and roll are just more superior and they're more evolved and they're more holy. I think it's interesting how he doesn't say that religion is bad. And isn't it so interesting that moderated religion is, is a tool of the enemy?
Micah Leydorf:It reminds me what you're talking about, of a quote by another wonderful English author, G. K. Chesterton, say Christianity has not been Found wanting it's not been tried and found wanting it has been not tried. I'm probably butchering that quote, but, but, um, but that's the same thing. It's like, it's, oh, it's something masquerading as the authentic, message, the gospel message. And there's a, you know, that's a counterfeit. That's what. The demons and Satan are masters at as, um, deception and again, providing counterfeits. And they don't want you to examine too closely to see that that's not really the source of pleasure. You know, that's not the real
Laurel Thomas:I think that, you know, one of the things that I really because it's in the negative view and from the liar's view, this is what, what I was just. thinking about. There is therefore now no condemnation, no guilty verdict, no punishment for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, that is overcome sin and remove its penalty and its power. Being weakened by the flesh, God did. He sent his own son in the likeness of sinful man and as an offering for sin. Okay, so, do we believe that there's no more condemnation? I think that some of the, what I hear in Screwtape Letters is the largeness of the goodness of God. is not and even if someone says they believe that there's going to be caveats well yes you're you're not condemned if you don't do this and this and this and
Kat Lewis:they provide a laundry list
Laurel Thomas:this and this and this then so actually i am condemned no the bible says i'm not condemned and when we look at that paradigm of coming before god washed and cleansed wow That eliminates a lot of the enemy's noise. It's a paradigm. And so I think the whole paradigm of evil is to get, I mean, he says at the very end is to get into that religious mindset of, you know, self, you know, am I holy enough? Am I, have I slipped here? And I believe in being careful, you know, in our walk with the Lord. But the bottom line is he said he purchased for us a free life.
Micah Leydorf:Yeah, that's, that's one of the reasons why in my novel, I added the angel voice because, you know, I, I love the demon voice, like I say, as a tool to help us think differently and help reveal these, these, but then it felt like, Oh, we need to hear. We need to hear that message of truth, right? We need to, I actually need someone to say to me, Oh, she is a child of God. She is beloved. Like I want to have those words like wash over me and therefore wash over my reader. Yes, exactly. So it's like, maybe we need to have it a little bit more explicit.
Melissa Grace:That's one of my favorite parts of it.
Micah Leydorf:It's just that that's a lovely part. I love it. And I do feel like I need to, like, fix my Chesterton quote because I butchered it so bad. Like, I looked up here. The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried. So there's the actual quote from G. K. Chesterton. Um, so again, but, uh, When we find that, that real thing. And, um, I, I think, I hope that this book has been edifying and life changing and I actually have avoided it for the last seven years because I didn't want to be overly influenced when I was writing mine. So it was kind of nice to get back to it. A little reminder of C. S. Lewis's brilliance. And I hope maybe we can explore another C. S. Lewis book at some point. So thank you so much for joining us. I hope you have enjoyed this episode of Stories That Change Us and our focus on The Screwtape Letters and C. S. Lewis, and I will just throw out there, if you are interested in the updated version, um, my novel's name again is The Unseen Battle, An Unexpected Love Story by Micah Leydorf. Love to have you join in any of the discussions about that or to pick up a copy at Amazon or my website. We'll see you next time. Bye guys.
