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Stories That Change Us
A lively discussion between four friends and authors as they breakdown the most popular fiction from the last century. Join us as we identify the key aspects of storytelling, character development, and social analysis that have caused these stories to resonate through the decades and, in doing so, help novice and seasoned writers craft bestselling fiction of their own.
Stories That Change Us
Episode 8: A Wrinkle In Time by Madeline L'Engle
26 rejections, a frequent spot on the banned books list, and shining the light on the dangers of blind conformity are just a few of the surprises awaiting readers of Madeline L'Engle's, A Wrinkle In Time.
Moderated By: Laurel Thomas
Question: what is a story that has changed your life?
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Welcome to our eighth episode of the Stories That Change Us podcast. My name is Laurel Thomas, and I have some really good friends here, and they're gonna introduce themselves.
Micah Leydorf:Micah Leydorf.
Melissa Grace:I'm Melissa Grace.
Kat Lewis:And I am Kat Lewis.
Laurel Thomas:So, here's the scoop. Today, We are going to be talking about the best selling YA fantasy, A Wrinkle In Time, by Madeline L'Engle. Here's a few fun facts. It was awarded the John Newbery Award in 1963, 11 years after the Chronicles of Narnia. This is my favorite part. It endured 26 rejections because publishers didn't know if it was written for adults or children. Seriously. Yes. We like that. Yeah. It is one of the most frequently, or was or is, I'm not sure, most frequently banned books under the accusation of being both too religious and anti christian.
Micah Leydorf:Oh my gosh. Seriously.
Kat Lewis:You've got to love that.
Laurel Thomas:I've said seriously three times. It was adapted into a film with a star studded cast. Oprah Winfrey, Reese Witherspoon and Chris Pine.
Micah Leydorf:Which was terrible. Don't don't see it.
Kat Lewis:You weren't a fan of the movie.
Micah Leydorf:Oh my gosh. No, I know we're not. This is not about movie adaptations. This is about, you know, writing and novels and storytelling and story technique. But it's just gotta be said. We don't want anyone to go see it thinking that we're advocating that because. Well, some movies do have beautiful adaptations. That was not one of them.
Kat Lewis:That missed the mark.
Micah Leydorf:So, you know, a few months ago we talked about a princess bride and that one had a fabulous movie adaptation, right? I would say most of the books that we've talked about have had really strong movie and TV adaptations, you know, Outlander, Pride and Prejudice, Gone With The Wind. But A Wrinkle In Time? Yo, fail!
Kat Lewis:Just, just don't, just don't, just don't go see it, just don't go see it.
Micah Leydorf:But you know, maybe we should talk about like what good storytelling elements, you know, need to be included and maybe why they weren't present. I don't know if we want to go there at all. That's even worth any discussion at all. Or maybe just focus on the book and how awesome it is.
Kat Lewis:Yeah. Yeah. I do think it's worth kind of like just lingering here because I think Normal audiences, like non writers, can identify bad storytelling in a movie, book to movie adaptation, but maybe they don't understand why. I think, Laurel, you kind of hit the nail on the head, where sometimes when you only focus on the theatrical part of a story And there's so much about A Wrinkle In Time that's theatrical. You know, crazy characters, time travel, witches, stars that turn into centaurs, a talking brain, like it's so visual But if you miss out on the soul and the point that the author, you know, why did the author write this book? If you miss that. Then it's the movie's going to fall flat and it doesn't matter. Oprah can dress up however she wants. And I still don't care.
Micah Leydorf:Right.
Kat Lewis:You know, I walk away going that was a, maybe a waste of two hours of my life. Right. So I think that like hitting the soul and the soul of the story is probably why it ends up on the banned books list.
Micah Leydorf:So bizarre to me. What? Right.
Kat Lewis:But not religious enough. Make up your mind.
Micah Leydorf:Well, that reminds me of JK Rowling, right? Like she was originally targeted by the Christian right. And then now she's targeted by the left and again, what she wrote didn't change. So it's interesting. It is interesting.
Laurel Thomas:Well, and I think what, and to what you were saying, Kat, When there is a strong agenda being pushed that is not necessarily in the novel, it just, to me, I can't go there. Why would you take the heart of the book out and replace it with an agenda? I mean, if you want to promote a certain agenda, then promote the agenda, right? But don't take a story, pull out the guts and insert new guts.
Micah Leydorf:Right. Classic beloved novel. Well, of course we know why you do it because then you're going to sell more tickets, right? Because for everyone who loves the book, I mean, because this book, I, one of the reasons why we're talking about it is it's, it's transcended all these generations, right? Like we've read it. Maybe our Children have read it, you know, from 1963, you got over 50 years of readers.
Melissa Grace:Over 61 years.
Micah Leydorf:Thank you for the math.
Melissa Grace:Because I was born in 1963. I know exactly how long ago that was.
Kat Lewis:See, and that was actually surprising. I did not realize that this book has, like, It's this book is an old book. It's an old classic.
Micah Leydorf:Okay, just we were just like, we, one of the things that's great about our book is the multi generational nature of the four of us. So we have Laurel represents the upper level. And then we have Melissa and then myself, Micah, and then Kat is our baby, millennial. But between the four of us, we really each represent a different decade, which we love.
Laurel Thomas:We love that about us. We love that. And I think that's kind of like I'm saying with an adaptation, go with the heart of the story. I mean, if you're going to switch other things around fine, but don't take the heart out and try to make it your own, right? It's not yours. It's a work of art that someone else wrote.
Micah Leydorf:So let's dig into why it's a work of art and why it is. Transcended all this time.
Laurel Thomas:Well, great idea. So, we usually do this, and I think it's always so revealing about the novel. And the question is, what quote stood out to you as an excellent example of tension, author voice, or character development? I have to say right off the bat, this was like really early on, but Mrs. What's it comes to see them on a dark and stormy night. And she, she's, she's hungry. She's been blown off course of course. And, Charles knows her though. And she knows Charles. In fact, she's been blown off course, but she's like, wait a minute, Charles lives here, which, you know, you kind of wonder, hmm, okay. And then she said, I am passionately fond of Russian caviar. And Charles goes, You knew.
Melissa Grace:You peaked.
Laurel Thomas:You peaked. That's for mother's birthday. You can't have any. Here's a tuna sandwich.
Micah Leydorf:And just for those readers who, you know, didn't, haven't read the book, or who saw the movie so they didn't really get the story at all, um, Charles Wallace is like a five year old boy, right? So there's this little boy and then this presumably older woman. And it was just, that was such a great quote. It's so fun. That was a great choice, Laurel. I love that choice. So I made it, I picked 1 that's not especially, um, I, I don't know. It was early on as well in the, in the novel. And it was what their mother, Meg and Charles Wallace to the main characters in the story. Their mother, Mrs. Murray made a comment about she said people are more than how they look and you know, it's not like a super memorable quote, but you know, that's another thing in storytelling about like saying early on, like one of the theme, like just planting that theme in the book. And like, literally that she said those words, because that is a huge theme throughout this adventure story, which is essentially like Kat said, you know, so theatrical with it's just, it's an adventure story. It's. It's like going from one, which she does a great job in the, in the book about keeping that tension the entire time. But I liked just that little, just throwing in the, that theme and actually having the character state one of those themes so clearly.
Melissa Grace:And that was a theme that went all the way through. I felt like that one of the quotes that, um, that stuck out to me was Mrs. Watson said. At one point the kids are on like another planet and fascinated with a moon set or something like that. And she said, no, child, do not turn around any of you face out toward the dark. What I have to show you will be more visible then. And I just thought that was such a cool way talking about seeing what's unseen, like you were saying with the things are more than they look like.
Micah Leydorf:I think one of the reasons why adults sometimes like to read YA is, It's a little more simple, but again, like I love the fact that this book was, I mean, of course, again, we're all aspiring. We are authors, but also aspiring authors because it's always a continuing journey. And so the fact that someone is talented and with so much to offer the world as Madeline L'Engle experienced 26 rejections of what I thought was interesting too, was that this was her sixth novel. So she'd been published and had written some things and had some success. And then. When they came to this, they're like, we don't know where this goes. Um, and so
Kat Lewis:it doesn't fit clearly into a lane.
Micah Leydorf:Right. And, and that's like all of us. I think that's another common theme. Like I feel like the really, the really good stuff doesn't usually just fit neatly into a box. That's what makes it, you know, powerful and good.
Laurel Thomas:I mean, think of To Kill A Mockingbird, you know, the narrator when at the opening is eight years old. And so the narrator is a child. relating a nation on the cusp of cultural revolution. How genius is that? So why would we expect it not to be a universal draw? You know, the, the viewpoint of a child is, is so fascinating. They don't have filters, so yeah, I mean, I, to me, that just translate translates as universal.
Micah Leydorf:Yeah. But I love that, like in YA, it's like the themes are they're not difficult. I mean, like they, there's in the good YA novels, there is depth so that you can read it as an adult and still like the Chronicles of Narnia that you brought up, Laurel. So I love that quote from C. S. Lewis. In the letter to the little girl, Lucy, that one day you'll be old enough to start reading fairy tales again. So I feel like that's where we are now. I guess I'm, you know, going to turn 50 next week. So I guess I'm old enough to start reading fairy tales again. And that we're, you know, revisiting A Wrinkle In Time. But I think that's, that's the sign of a good children's book or good YA novel that there's enough depth that when you go back, you see things that you don't, because the first time that, you know, we read that, I'm sure that the face out towards the dark, you just took it literally like, Oh, okay. Like if I face and look out this way towards this moon set, I'm going to be able to see the planet that, but then as come back at your age with all your experience and say, Oh, look, look at this deeper meaning here.
Laurel Thomas:I think too, as a fantasy writer. When I have something large to say, I love to put it in fantasy. You can say things on so many levels in fantasy, and they can be large out there thoughts. And people don't necessarily have to understand them, but when they're cloaked with a character that you can relate to, or that you're drawn into their world, then you're brought into a world that you would never have gone without that. outside of that character. So the character is still leading us, I think, you know, whether it's YA,
Micah Leydorf:now, Laurel, are your books YA or, or some of them or?
Laurel Thomas:Yes, they, although I don't market them to YA, they're, they're light fantasy. Uh, I, I like to call them redemptive fantasy because I like to put spiritual ideas and thoughts into a story. But the thing about that kind of story, you still have to have a great story. You have to have a great character. You have to sell a character in a way that, that you want to go on the journey with her, even if it is wild and crazy and you've never experienced it before.
Kat Lewis:No, I think Madeline L'Engle has, I was listening to some interviews with Madeline L'Engle. Cause when I, when we do these things, like I kind of deep dive into like, Who is this person? And what do other people say about this person's writing? And, um, she has a different definition of the genre of fantasy that I think will delight you, Laurel. And she says that"fantasy is the exploration of truths beyond mere facts. It is moving towards truth that is beyond truth. And it is going beyond easy possibilities".
Laurel Thomas:Oh my goodness.
Kat Lewis:And I think that going to what you're saying, Micah, about like, why is it that we can come back to these books 20 years later, right? I think that leads beautifully into the second question, which is like, what is a moment or a scene in the story that stands out with this relief? And I will say there's a moment when Meg is determined to go and face the big bad villain. It, which a commentator described it as a satanic brain. And I thought, Hmm, that's some strong visual language for you. But like, that's, that's the big bad. Is this,
Micah Leydorf:is this disembodied brain sitting on a dais, pulsating, pulsating. Yeah.
Kat Lewis:And that, uh, her, it has, it has seduced her brother Charles. And so now like her brother, Charles is hooked up to this nasty thing. Yeah. verbalizing its commands. And that's her point. Her point is, yes, I want to defeat the brain, but I really want to save my brother Charles. And Charles, who is kind of the, he's the, the oddball five year old who's got a better vocabulary. Yeah. Yeah. He's got a better vocabulary than most 60 year olds. Right. And, um, I think a moment that really stood out for is when I believe it's Mrs. Whatsit is giving instructions. All of the witches give Meg instructions on how to defeat the brain. But it's Mrs. What's it that, um, I believe she says something to this degree. She's like,
Micah Leydorf:I give you your flaws. That one? No, it's that's before. Oh yeah.
Kat Lewis:That's before it's actually this is her preface to that verse in Corinthians, right? She, um, I don't know if you guys, if you guys noticed that, like, Mrs. I believe it's Mrs. Whatsit. She basically says, I'm going to tell you this, but You have to absorb it with feeling. Don't get stuck in the logic of the thing. And then she proceeds to quote this verse and I believe it's, um, first Corinthians 1, 24 through 29, basically where it's that verse where like, it says that the Lord will use the things of logic and intellect. The Lord will use established things. the wise, right? But I thought there was something really powerful about
Melissa Grace:use the simple things. I'll use the simple, simple things to confound the wise, the weak things to confound the strong. Yeah, which to me, that's the whole, that's the whole theme of the book.
Kat Lewis:Really?
Melissa Grace:I think it is. I think it's one of the themes.
Laurel Thomas:Well, it's certainly true for Charles.
Melissa Grace:Yeah, because it because Charles in his, you know, great intellectual ability. Is just sucked in because pride, it's like the thing it, um, seduced on, seduced him mm-hmm Through his pride and she, Meg, is um, I have to be 100% honest. I did not love this book.
Micah Leydorf:What?
Melissa Grace:I know, I know. I loved it when I was a kid. I loved it when it went, when I was a kid. I just have to give a shout out to Laurel who has, you know, her fantasy, you know, she brings us into a world the way she writes descriptions and gives us imagery in our minds through her words. I feel like we, you're just there. And with this book, it was just so much more stark. It was a lot of action and it was a lot of just simple story and simple imagery that was powerful and I liked it by the end. I'll put it that way. And I remember reading it as a child and loving it, but I, I liked it again by the end because all the themes were all wrapped up and, and it was like, Oh, okay. Now I see what she's saying and how, and she really did do it brilliantly, but.
Kat Lewis:Yeah, I feel like the themes that she was exploring could not have been said subtly, right? When you are attacking this idea of conformity, right? And conformity, because that's what the big, that's what,
Melissa Grace:Yes,
Kat Lewis:the brain was doing is it was basically, basically creating this utopia where everybody's the same. Everybody looks the same. Everybody is in the same rhythm of life. I would say like probably the most chilling scene for me was, um, when the, when, uh, Meg and Charles and Calvin, their friend are playing with the other kids and they get in trouble for not bouncing the balls in time because all these kids are robotic, robotically. Playing quote unquote, but bouncing their balls in the same
Laurel Thomas:except for one.
Kat Lewis:Monotonous rhythm. My, my,
Melissa Grace:what stood out to me was the mother's reaction to the little boy.
Laurel Thomas:She knew what was at stake.
Melissa Grace:Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Laurel Thomas:I thought it was interesting that the villain was a brain. Isn't that interesting? You know, so what were they saying about, you know, like, so it's like a disembodied Reason. Right? Right. Rationale. Yes.
Micah Leydorf:So that's not who you think is going to be the villain. Right. It's rationality. Like, oh wait, no. Aren't we going for rationality? Aren't we going for logic?
Laurel Thomas:See, I think it was a huge cultural thing that she was hitting.
Micah Leydorf:Well, you know, I mean, again, it's always interesting, like with like 1984 or different, like these futuristic novels to think about like what she was describing. Sounded just very eerily modern, right? Like, even so, the fact that what she was describing after the children were playing in perfect synchronization, then they go into their houses at exactly the same time. And then the boy comes along writing on A cross between a scooter and motorcycle and a bicycle was like, it's like, like the things we have right now, the electric bicycles that are going down the street right now. And then all the people are got these big computers and, you know, they're doing all these things. It's like, All of that sounds just like what we have. I mean, you know, for being on a different planet 60 years ago. And then also if you're not, if you're not falling straight in line, the horrible, we're going to reprogram you. Um, okay. Yes. Um, seems just all very, very visionary of Miss L'Engle to see this as the, as the great danger, not allowing people to
Kat Lewis:Be individuals
Micah Leydorf:to be individuals and have differing gifts and talents.
Kat Lewis:Again, reading some commentary. I think that this was like the fear of Massive corporatization post world war two, you know, so we had this massive trauma globally. And so kind of the result or the response was, okay, we're going to create these neighborhoods that all look the same cause it's safe. And we're going to create these cities that all look the same cause it's safe. And we're going to push that eight to five job because it's safe. And Madeline L'Engle, I can see her sitting at her desk going, it's safe. Maybe today, But how is that going to brainwash our kids? Right? How is that going to brainwash the generations that the pursuit of this cookie cutter lifestyle is going to steadily drain your uniqueness? It's steadily going to drain your desire to pursue who you really are for the sake of safety.
Laurel Thomas:I love that. And I, I think that it's so incredible that it was love that conquered. The brain. Yes. Mm hmm. Yes. How powerful is that? Because really there was no way out for Charles. There was no way out. He was totally absorbed
Micah Leydorf:again I love that that he's super intelligent and that he was absorbed by this, you know Rationality and logic and it's Meg with all of her many many flaws and loud Opinionated and yes the bit just oh, but But I love you, right, right. But love, like you say, like all of this other doesn't really matter and that's the only thing that could break through
Kat Lewis:and that rationality cannot process such love, right? That's what like overwhelmed it, right? Was it's like, Oh, I can't even, I don't even know what to do with this amount of emotion that you have for. Kind of like what you were saying, Laura, like your broken family, like who wants to be told what to do? Who wants a five year old brother who's more intelligent than you are, right? You and your teenagers, you know, in your teenage years and you feel awkward and you're like, I'm I hate being different, right?
Melissa Grace:But it's she said I love how that the foreshadowing of her being so different at school
Kat Lewis:Yeah, like she is she's
Micah Leydorf:Refuses to comply. She refuses to conform. She is
Laurel Thomas:and that's what Mrs. Watsit said. She said it's you. It's the part of you that you don't like. I give you your flaws. I give you your flaws. Right. Right. Okay. I like that.
Micah Leydorf:You know, another thing I really love about that, we're talking about visceral scenes. Um, and of course, like in the scene where she. Does confront the great evil power of it and saves her brother as, I mean obviously a really visceral scene.
Laurel Thomas:It right look at the ai, whatever you wanna call, she did it right. I loved that whenever she confronts the, the visceral, um, brain that this, the evil that initially she was angry and that it fed on her anger. And then she's like, no, anger is not the solution. Like this way, I'm just going to be drawn into it. And I feel like that is a message for us today. Right? Because we can get really angry and we have to remember, no, the way out of this. Is love the way out of this is not anger. It's not to like, no, we're going to be angry at the people who want us to conform, or we're going to be angry at, you know, like, all of these,
Kat Lewis:I think that's really powerful, Micah, because there's a lot of energy put to groups that. herald themselves as the gatekeepers of nonconformity. Um, and I'm not going to name some of these groups, but I think we all know those groups that are all about individual identity at all costs, right? They're all about, we've been silenced for so long and we won't be silenced anymore. But when you look at the heartbeat of their motive and intent, it is anger based, right? Even though they say we, all we want is love and inclusion and acceptance. That's not what they're really that's not what they're projecting out in the world of projecting anger and so I think there is something that's kind of sit with this idea of Yes, you know show up as an individual who with a unique identity But perhaps maybe we should try corporately across the board instead of coming into spaces angry with a narrative of I've been silenced and I won't be silenced anymore. Maybe we should just relax, right? And the acceptance that we so seek, maybe we should just accept the other person.
Micah Leydorf:Extend that.
Kat Lewis:Extend that first.
Melissa Grace:Well, and I think that that just brings up how you can take any position and be hateful about it. I mean, like sure. Anti abortion
Laurel Thomas:same spirit.
Melissa Grace:Um, yeah. Um, you can, you can be, you know, take something that on the face of it looks like a cause that is it's for the weak, it's for the unborn, but if you're ugly about it, it really is. I mean, that was that. Was the thought process that went through my mind when reading that passage where she says, Oh, I can feel that my anger is feeding this. It's the hatred. It I'm, I'm buying into it.
Laurel Thomas:And it's more than ugly, which I think is what her point was. It was destructive. Right. It was, it was murderous.
Melissa Grace:Even though she was hating a thing because it was hating.
Micah Leydorf:It reminds me simultaneously of something that Gandhi said. And then of course, so many things that MLK said about I choose love, you know, and didn't, but Gandhi talked about, um, The unforgiveness is like poison, like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. So, you know, like I say, like she feels this anger. It's like, you don't realize that's going to harm you. It's not going to hurt them. It's hurting. You
Laurel Thomas:because you're the same at that moment, and that's what I think Melissa is trying to say if it's a murderous spirit It's a murderous spirit. It doesn't matter what you're Touting right as truth or not truth, which is I think is so interesting about making the brain a villain because we can all, we can argue on every side, right? But if there is a murderous spirit operating behind that argument,
Micah Leydorf:you know, I heard another quote recently. It was from this really, I think, pretty exciting movement called the after party. It was some Christian thought leaders, um, like David French and, um, I I'm forgetting some of the other ones, but, um, talking about. Christians like needing to find identity outside of their political party because the political, a lot of people feel homeless. But, um, at this forum that I was listening to, they are giving some quotes about like our nation and how divided it is and that literally it was like, A ridiculous number, like, um, I want to quote it, I don't remember exactly, but maybe like 40 percent or even something crazily high like that. Thinking that the country would be better off if a vast majority of the other people who disagreed with them were to die. Like, I mean, it was very serious.
Laurel Thomas:She's saying that in this novel. She, you know it. Are it Sorry. It why? I'm not against it. I like it. Chris Maselli is the best but she's not saying it's ugly. She's saying it's murderous. And I just, I mean, the fact that Meg wins an impossibly captive brother by love is just enormous.
Kat Lewis:Yeah, no, I think that we've kind of, we've dabbled in like the social truths. Like this is one of those, those novels that again, I think the movie adaptation fell short of exploring any of this,
Micah Leydorf:any, any of this on any level,
Kat Lewis:So we kind of touched on social truths.
Micah Leydorf:A lot.
Kat Lewis:A lot. A lot.
Melissa Grace:Because that's what it's about, is social truths.
Kat Lewis:So what are some elements of the story of the craft of storytelling that are just done exceptionally well in this book?
Micah Leydorf:So I think tension. I think it has to be attention. I mean, again, this is an adventure story from the start, you know, it starts on the dark and stormy night introduces all the characters seamlessly in a way that. Doesn't feel forced at all. That gets you involved that you feel this connection to Meg is the heroine, somebody who's relatable. I feel like again, that's 1 of the reasons why that the character of Meg and how relatable she is, why it has such A timeless appeal to so many, like, who doesn't, like you say, as a middle schooler feel like they don't quite belong. Maybe they're, they're trying to find their way. Everyone else has got it together. Except me. Right. So again, it's, it's universal. And then it just takes you every single chapter. It's just an adventure story. And it's pretty simple story, actually, you'd say there's not a lot of setting. There's not a lot of,
Laurel Thomas:I mean, other than the quantum physics.
Micah Leydorf:So I, I feel like what she does really well is just keeps the tension throughout the entire she does. Yeah. That's good.
Kat Lewis:Because honestly, like they, they embark on this adventure to save their dad. I think that one of the things that she does really well Kind of to what Micah is saying is, um, like the deep need that is so relatable. Sometimes I think that as authors, we create deep needs that are specific to our characters, but may not necessarily be specific to our target audience. And so like this deep need of wanting to be like everybody else. You know, Meg is angry because her family is a broken family and that's different than like all the other seemingly perfect families around her. She's this awkward gangly kind of redhead with curly hair. And she's like, man, if I could just have blonde smooth locks, like, you know, just that intrinsic need of, and the perception of. My normal world is the broken world, right? Is there something broken about my, my normal world? And it's my family.
Laurel Thomas:That's my favorite part because that's like a universal, right? So if you want to know brokenness, just Look in your own family, right? Because your, your closest relationships are the ones that reflect that, but they also open up the door for real growth. And we see that in Meg, you know, we see that with, she adores her little brother and has this protective heart toward him. She gets mad at her dad. Cause her dad left, you know, Charles, right. And didn't get them out very well. She about died. But I love the whole family element and the fact that it's so powerful in, in characterization and also in change and growth.
Micah Leydorf:Well, I think the other real universal, besides the, you know, gangliness and the not belonging and all those was, is the father. Like you say, Laurel. So everybody has a father, whether he's present or not. And just like Meg, you either feel the lack of him, or you feel maybe he's lacking whatsoever. You know, Oh, wait, I thought everything was going to be okay. Once I found my dad, he's not Superman. Oh, you know, everything isn't okay because he's a human too. And he's flawed. So, I mean, father issues, how universal is that?
Laurel Thomas:And she goes right to the core of it. When she, her dad said, what's wrong, Megatron. And Meg goes, I wanted you to do it all.
Melissa Grace:I loved that. I felt like that was just such a.
Laurel Thomas:Such a moment of the child becoming, you know, grown. What is the rite of passage? What is the coming of age? It's where we've been waiting for someone else to do it. And if they don't do it right, then we get mad and say, you didn't do it right. But we didn't do anything.
Melissa Grace:Well, what I thought she did very, in such a strong way was, um, the way she created I, I just said I didn't feel like she was, she didn't spend a whole lot of time giving us A lot of, um, like, um, emotional imagery, but she did give us worlds turned on their heads. She did give us a different way of looking at things like the beast. I loved when aunt beast says, um, We do not know what things look like. We know what things are. Mm-hmm It must be very limiting. This thing seeing so good.
Laurel Thomas:Alright, so our happy conclusion to our podcast is character roulette. And so, um, Kat, would you do the honors of drawing a name for us?
Micah Leydorf:Well, let's just review. We've got some choices here. We got Meg. We've got her little brother, Charles Wallace. We have Calvin. We have Mrs. Murray, Mr. Murray, Mrs. Who, Mrs. What's It, Mrs. What's the third one? Witch. Witch. We've got It. Um, Aunt Beast. I don't know. Am I forgetting any?
Laurel Thomas:That covers them.
Melissa Grace:The, the, the creepy guy with the red eyes.
Micah Leydorf:Oh, okay. I just viewed him in the mouthpiece mouth mouthpiece for the brain really, but I'll know more. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Kat Lewis:Okay. Let's, let's, let's spin it around, spin it around and let's talk about Charles. Charles Wallace, the little brother. Okay. Yes. The five year old Yes. Yes. Let's talk about kind of, um, his role as a change engine in the story. And I'll tell you, um, reading this book, I immediately identified Charles as the Edmund in Chronicles of Narnia.
Micah Leydorf:Really? Right.
Kat Lewis:Yes. Oh my gosh. Absolutely. Him coming to this world where maybe he felt seen and he felt understood Whereas in the normal world, he even kind of says it He's like, I think it's better if people think that I'm slow because if they realize how intelligent I am They're gonna hate me for it. But in this, you know, Camazotz. He's like, oh I can be I can be all that I think that I can be right and it's that kind of like it's that pride that allows that The brain to seduce him and kind of that same kind of parallelism of like Edmund coming to Narnia and seeing the potential for His unrealized self to come.
Laurel Thomas:That's cool. Right?
Kat Lewis:Yeah, I really saw The parallels and it kind of makes sense if Madeline L'Engle was kind of in the same Literary spaces as C. S. Lewis. I see a lot of parallels and like maybe how they executed That seduction into,
Laurel Thomas:let me say something about Charles. I think at this point, what did it steal from Charles. Charles had this intuitive gift and, he could perceive. Yes. He could perceive what Meg was thinking. They had such a strong connection. And he even understood his mom and he knew the twins were like, not too hard to understand, you know, not real, not real deep and complicated. But I think that what it stole from Charles was that part of him. And it was only his intellect. That got corrupted because Charles did not have a corrupt soul.
Micah Leydorf:Right. I don't see him. I don't see him being really sweet. Yes. He was a sweet little boy. So I think I see the differences between him and Edmund. Edmund is, I see kind of like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Edmund is young. And I mean, he needs to be, he has a greater need for redemption arc than Charles Wallace, even like whenever he. He's like, Meg, we have to do this in order to save Father. So he wasn't doing it like Edmund. Like, Oh, I can, what? At Peter here, I can be the, you know, white, white, you know, little liaison and nobody else, something. So yes, maybe Charles Wallace has a little bit of pride that enables that, but, but again, he's basically a sweet little boy who was in need of some Saving versus a traitor.
Laurel Thomas:Well, other than that, they were very similar. Well, but right. And, and that's what I saw. I mean, as far as like, um, like with his sister, they have the sweetest relationship and it's very two way and in it she's protected because she knows his heart and that's how she knows it's not him. when she comes to get him away.
Micah Leydorf:That reminds me, Laurel, I, maybe this is a good thing to end on is that, you know, again, we're just talking about, you know, the importance of love and again, how there's a lot of division in our world today on various fronts. And somebody said to me recently, um, uh, we were talking about how to overcome that. And they said, um, I said, well, what about that quote from Oprah about, you know, when people show you who they are, you know, believe them or I think it's originally Maya Angelou than Oprah quoting Maya Angelou. Um, and she said, they're not showing you who they are. She said, they're showing you the lies that they've believed. And that just so stuck with me. So when you say like about Charles Wallace, like she knew his heart and she said, knew that that's not Charles. That's really true of every single human being. And this is what she was saying. It's like, you know who people are. They are. They're beloved children of God. That's who every single human being is. And whenever they show something different, that's showing you the lies that they believed. So I think that maybe that's a good thing.
Melissa Grace:That's powerful.
Kat Lewis:That's so powerful.
Micah Leydorf:Yeah. Of like, again, how we can overcome just like Meg did by love and one, how can we love one another to see each other for who we truly are.
Laurel Thomas:Mm-hmm Good conclusion. Well, we've had a wonderful time. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we always enjoy each other and you. So come back and see us for the next podcast, which will be about Jane Eyre.
Kat Lewis:Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. So we hope you guys will come hang out with us and we will see you soon.
Micah Leydorf:All right.
Laurel Thomas:Bye.
