Propaganda, Pacing, and Point of View: Writing Lessons from 1984

Bleak, prophetic, and chillingly precise—George Orwell’s 1984 is a masterclass in dystopian storytelling and political fiction. Through stark prose, oppressive worldbuilding, and relentless psychological tension, Orwell transforms abstract ideas about power, surveillance, and propaganda into an intimate human nightmare. Join us as we analyze how 1984 became one of the most influential and bestselling novels of all time by fusing high-concept ideas with deeply personal stakes—and what modern writers can learn from Orwell’s use of structure, language, and psychological realism to craft fiction that unsettles, endures, and demands to be remembered.  

Question: what is a story that has changed your life?

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Transcript

Kat Lewis 0:43

In a grim, totalitarian future, Winston Smith lives under the unblinking gaze of Big Brother, the omnipresent leader of Oceana. In this world, history is rewritten, language is controlled and thought itself is monitored. Privacy is an illusion. Rebellion is punishable by death. Winston works at the Ministry of Truth altering records to fit the party's ever-changing narrative. When he meets Julia, a daring fellow worker, they start a forbidden love affair. Yet their rebellion is fragile. Winston and Julia are captured, and Winston is subjected to relentless torture, brainwashing, and physical torment in the dreaded ministry of love. His spirit is broken, his love twisted, and his mind reshaped to obey. By the end, Winston has become the ideal party subject. His defiance erased his humanity subsumed. It's a world where love and rebellion are fleeting and Big Brother watches all.

Melissa Grace 1:54

Hello and welcome to Stories That Change Us, a podcast discussing classic books with four writer friends. I'm Melissa Grace. I write inspirational fiction.

Laurel Thomas 2:07

I'm laurel Thomas. I write fantasy.

Micah Leydorf 2:10

I'm Micah Leydorf. I write inspirational fiction, among other things.

Kat Lewis 2:14

And my name is Kat Lewis, and I write thrilling women's fiction.

Melissa Grace 2:19

And tonight we are in Micah's cozy little cottage library. We're going to talk about George Orwell's 1984, the dystopian novel was set in 1984, Orwell's Near Future in our recent past. But, um, but the novel is still relevant to us today because of its depiction of a totalitarian government and It's themes of using manipulation and advanced technology to control people. Just couldn't think of a better way to say it. That wraps it up. And, George Orwell also wrote Animal Farm. That's the other of his that High school literature classes. You may have had to read.

Kat Lewis 3:05

Um, and I apologize on your behalf..

Melissa Grace 3:10

Yeah, that's right. George isn't here to apologize, but we'll do it for you. Um, in this podcast, we're always looking for nuggets for writers. That is what we want. Writers to be able to come here. And after you listen, we want you to be inspired to go and make your work better or look at it from a perspective you hadn't looked at it before. And I love this quote from him. My starting point is always a feeling of partisanship. A sense of injustice. When I sit down to write a book, I do not say to myself, I am going to produce a work of art. I write it because there is some lie I want to expose. That to me is just so powerful. Not all of us are writing something as profound as the novel in 1984, which Kat, you were saying it, it changed the way we talk. We have lexicon from this novel

Micah Leydorf 4:11

Right like so,"big brother","double speak","new speak" Thought crimes"... Those are all terms that Orwell put into our vocabulary that we understand now. This is, this is the 75th anniversary. This isn't even just 50 years old. This is 75 years old. And when I've read it before, but when I read it this time, I was like, I'm sure you guys all have the same reaction of, Oh my gosh, I can't believe how relevant this is. It's crazy relevant. You know, he, he came up with this, um, Convoluted futuristic way of Changing history. You know having to cut out these things and put them in a memory hole and it's like, um, oh my goodness That's not quite how we do it now. We just delete it.

Melissa Grace 5:04

That's editing Wikipedia now, I mean that's what's crazy, right?

Micah Leydorf 5:09

So it was just unbelievably relevant and You know what you that quote that you read, which I love that you found and read that Melissa, but that's so evident, right? We've read a lot of authors in our past year of doing this podcast. I can't believe it's been a year, but Not a lot of them are creating art. It's just very evident that that, that he's doing something different. So I'm excited to talk with you guys about how that looks different.

Melissa Grace 5:39

We're looking for favorite quotes. A quote that stands out to you. And, as writers, we look at quotes and dialogue as a means to an end. It needs to work hard. And what I love about books like this is that you feel like every sentence pulls its weight. That's something a good editor will help you with. Every sentence helps make the story. What's a great quote that stands out as an example of tension, character development, or author's voice?

Laurel Thomas 6:12

I have one, I have one.

Melissa Grace 6:13

Oh! Laurel! Surprise, surprise! Laurel! Laurel the teacher! Laurel the teacher always raises her hand.

Laurel Thomas 6:20

Well, so there was one sentence that, he said the ministry of love was the really frightening building, so he was describing all of the buildings, and he said the ministry of love was the most frightening one. And it's interesting that It was in the ministry of love that his love was destroyed. And in Destroying his love, it destroyed his person. Sometimes you're not always sure like all of the parallels but basically the annihilation of person began in the ministry of love and

Micah Leydorf 6:56

Well that, I, I have a really hard time choosing just one quote, and I don't know that I have half a dozen written down here, but one of them that I have written down here goes right along with what you're saying, Laurel, and it's,"War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength". I mean, like, the terminology that he uses, the language that he uses, again, it makes so much sense that he says, I'm exposing this lie. But, another, another quote I had was just, Two plus two is five. And I actually used that the other day. Someone was, I, you know, I wouldn't even say what they were citing, is a news story. And I just put, two plus two is five. You know, but then I guess my quote that I actually am going to stick with, which I really like and this is when he was being tortured in the Ministry of Love by the person he thought was his friend, but has turned out to be part of the secret police or spy."What can you do, thought Winston, against the lunatic who is more intelligent than yourself, who gives your arguments a fair hearing? And then persists in his lunacy?" Because that's exactly what he does. I'm going to continue torturing you until you tell, say until, no, not until you say two to five, until you believe two plus two is five. I'm not even going to be content. If you just say it, you have to believe what I say that is not true and does not make sense and it just seems so Relevant it was It was really a depressing book, right?

Kat Lewis 8:31

No, it was depressing because we can see all of these tendrils in modern society, and kind of piggybacking off of your quote. First of all, Micah, you stole my quote I'm, sorry, did you steal? Um, but, my second quote is this."But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought". And it's this very interesting thing of, Like I said, she had that one written down as well. Um, you know, but I think it's so interesting. It's so powerful. What we say does and does not matter because that impacts your trajectory.

Laurel Thomas 9:13

Look at how he did. He accomplished that with literary device.

Melissa Grace 9:19

That's what I was thinking. Okay. Okay. So that shows how successful he was because. You know, we, we want to stay on task and be here talking about literary device, but the way he did it was so fascinating that we want to talk about what he did.

Kat Lewis 9:34

We do. Okay. So how he, I think how he showed. That, you know, that"thought corrupts language, language corrupts thought" is how terrified in the very beginning of that first chapter. How terrified Winston was of writing his thoughts down. And how, at one point, he goes, makes a whole show of opening up this novel, this diary that's illegal to have, and using this old fashioned ink pen that's illegal to have. Right? And then he realizes, where did the thought go? Like the thought just vanishes. And as the story continues, we realize that the thought is what the government really wanted to control. And that he was somebody who was so aware, and maybe there are thousands and millions of people who were so aware that thought is what the government wanted to control.

Laurel Thomas 10:21

Well, and he said, why am I writing this? And for whom? And he says, for the future, for the unborn. That's at the very, very beginning. So we know at the very beginning, these are the stakes. So in other words, this is going to be cut off. Immediately we know the stakes are incredibly high.

Kat Lewis 10:46

And then he proceeds to build a world that shows us how against his goal, the entire world is. Like, the government is not, they don't want you concerned about the future, and he shows that in the constant noise, right? They're surrounded by propaganda on the radio, exercise things that you're supposed to be doing, right? The TV is always on, filling your head with noise, so it's really hard for you to be concerned about, you What's happening tomorrow, much less what's happening 25 years.

Melissa Grace 11:22

Or even being alone with those thoughts. Yes. Like for those, and when you said something about the journal, it triggered a thought in me that how powerful it was, it was such a cool literary picture that he drew when he got all the way down to the detail of, I'm going to put this piece of fuzz on this so I know if they've opened it or not. And to me, for him to drill down to that level of minutiae made it, first of all, really powerful'cause we can relate to it. But, it was a picture of what they wanna control. They wanna control all the way down to the. Why? The root of your thoughts.

Micah Leydorf 12:10

Yeah, I think that you're so right, Kat, in just saying about the terror. That, that was the thing. Like, you know, when you, you said, okay, yes, we know, we know he's made it very clear. He's partisan. He wants to expose this lie. He has a message. But then if he had just come out and said that, then we wouldn't be talking about it 75 years later. It's because he conveyed that terror. He conveyed that danger. It's such a compelling story, that that's why we're still talking about it. And I think whenever he did open up that journal, I, one thing I remember them saying, but I didn't write this quote down was it didn't even matter what he wrote. Just by picking up the pen and putting it to paper, he already committed the crime, already sealed his fate. And yeah, this is so profound again and conveying these really deep ideas but in a way that we can all everybody remembers.

Laurel Thomas 13:11

Well, how does a culture strategically disintegrate the individual? I mean, that was it, right? So, first, they take out books. They take out random facts in books, but pretty soon there aren't any books left. There isn't any truth left at all. And I thought how interesting that we're doing a podcast about stories that change us and the very thing in that dystopian culture was a removal of all independent thought. And most of it would come through books. So everything had to be contrived. Everything that they read had to be contrived. So it's just interesting that that is

Micah Leydorf 13:54

his girlfriend was a novel writer. If you recall. I mean, so they had books. It was just only the things we want in the books are in the book.

Melissa Grace 14:02

And she had a process. Like a machine basically did the writing. I thought that was a little, yeah.

Micah Leydorf 14:10

Like I said, it was, it was creepy. It was, it was creepy. That was like, yeah,

Kat Lewis 14:18

I think he did such a wonderful, wonderful job showing the quiet rebellion, right? And like from a character perspective and talk about like the stakes because Winston was in quiet rebellion, he was suspicious of everybody, right? He was suspicious of everybody, but he was vulnerable because he was looking for a friend, right? He was looking for a companion. And I just thought talk about, you know, going back to our conversation with Agatha Christie's, And then there were none. One of the things that we said that she did really well in that book was she kept the question at the forefront of the reader's mind. I think Orwell keeps like he keeps the stakes. In your face to such a degree that you almost don't want Winston to go talk to Julia. You don't want Winston to go talk to

Micah Leydorf 15:07

O'Brien. The stakes, it was not just even death, not just even torture. It was un person. Right now. You don't exist. You don't exist anymore. Wipe out your existence in every evidence you ever did. Winston was an

Laurel Thomas 15:21

un person at the end. It didn't matter if he was alive or dead. He was still an un person. They had totally wiped away. Everything that he was as a person.

Melissa Grace 15:32

So, this is a great point, but what literary element do you think was executed well here? Or in a fresh way?

Laurel Thomas 15:41

He built terror systematically. You know, when they were watching the film and then Winston would say, you know, he could, he could begin watching the film. You know, the hate spiel and then, and he said that in it, in a matter of seconds, he was totally propelled in that hate and Winston's the most, I mean, he's the only individual really, you know,

Melissa Grace 16:09

and he doesn't seem hateful. He seems.

Micah Leydorf 16:12

I don't think a lot of authors do this. And maybe that's, I'm going to excuse my not ignorance of the lack of terminology in this case by saying a lot of authors don't do it. But, what he does so well is just what you're saying. It's like that he takes this phenomena of for instance how a propaganda film can make you feel this emotion and this hate and why that might be advantageous for a government to want you to feel that. But he turns it into into a story. So I don't know what the term is. Like he takes all these things like that idea of like okay they don't want you to even be alone with your thoughts. They don't want you to think independently and he took all these thoughts that these political thoughts

Laurel Thomas 16:56

world building Kat said it earlier

Micah Leydorf 16:58

Well these political thoughts that he has but then he made them into really compelling Yeah, would that be kind of like the the dystopian version that's so popular now? Like you know, with the Hunger Games that we talked about before?

Kat Lewis 17:11

Oh, this, this, This is the OG Hunger Games, right? This is the OG Divergent in so many ways. But You know, I think world building is probably one of those terms that if you are not a fantasy or sci fi writer, it feels maybe like a little disconnected.

Melissa Grace 17:27

We don't think that way. Like you're the fantasy writer and we don't think about world building.

Laurel Thomas 17:31

Right. Except that's not entirely true because whatever story we write, we are portraying a world. Right. That doesn't exist. So essentially we are we're world building. It may not be a fantastic outer world, but he built a world that we entered into and could understand. What was at stake because of that world?

Kat Lewis 17:54

Yes, and I think what he does so well, and what I will take away from this novel, is building a world that's so emotional characters have no choice but to respond. To create such high stakes, but like to weave those stakes into every little thing. Why is he shooting this nasty, oily gin at the very beginning of the film? Why is it that the, the young single women are walking around with anti sex sashes around there? Every little thing confirms the emotionality of the world that he's in. And he can't, he doesn't get to be a passive participant. It's like, no, no, no. Everything about the world is attacking his stance on life. And I just thought, what does it look like to not just make a world that's entertaining. Or not just make characters that are entertaining, but to put those characters in a world that literally is attacking those deeply held core beliefs.

Melissa Grace 18:51

Well, that's that you put your finger on it. What's at stake is something that is universal and prized by everyone, you know, just personhood and freedom. And so he found, you know, he tapped into that.

Micah Leydorf 19:07

So, I'm not a fantasy writer like you are, Laurel, but I think that, um, maybe that might be one of the keys. Again, we talk about these stories that change us and why are these transcendent and why are we still talking about 75 years later? I mean, all fantasy writers build worlds, but not all fantasy writers. are built intentionally to convey universal truths. I'm not sure that they think about that. I mean, some do like, I feel like in Hunger Games that she was, she was trying to convey something

Laurel Thomas 19:35

very much. Oh, yes.

Melissa Grace 19:37

And he, and that's one that we're still talking about.

Laurel Thomas 19:40

Right. I do think that, I think that the fantasy that endures does have an element of the world that people connect with that. And often they're like, um, what's the right word? They're like little parables, which is what drew me to fantasy. Was the whole parable aspect; because you are building a world, but it's a world that matters. It's a world that makes a difference. And often there's little parts of it that are also from our world, but it has to be integral to what the author's trying to say about that story. Otherwise it's just interesting, but yeah, whatever, right, right. It doesn't matter, but when it matters.

Micah Leydorf 20:26

Right. So I think that's why, you know, I think a lot of fantasy writers. It is just interesting I don't think

Laurel Thomas 20:33

I don't know about a lot because I don't read a lot. But I find that the best fantasy and if you look at dystopian and you lump it in that category You know Hunger Games that world is saying exactly what Suzanne Collins wanted it to say. And those characters are experiencing exactly what her point was well

Melissa Grace 20:54

in because all good fiction is truth. Like it, it has to be based on truth, even if it's, you know, hamsters in outer space or whatever.

Laurel Thomas 21:07

But it's also make believe, right? Because we're crafting it.

Melissa Grace 21:10

Right, right. But what makes it resonate is the truth that 75 years later, we can read and say, Oh my goodness. I see that. I see that in today's society.

Kat Lewis 21:25

You know, Melissa, talk about like the, the aspects of great fiction that just, um, make them stand the test of time is this idea of universality. So they take a common core human belief. personhood, but then the author, this author in particular, and great authors, will create a world that forces you to respond to the stakes, but they show us people who respond on either side of the issue. Right. So I think that's the difference between preachy, which is they only show us one path versus these stories that carry on is because we can see parts of ourselves in O'Brien. O'Brien sold out probably because it was a safer, easier thing to do. And other times when we sell out. Versus the Winstons and we're like, okay I'm going to cling to this at all costs, but we see Winston fail. And That creates a different kind of response, but it's, it's the duality that they show us, right? And the complexity of the world demands a response. And they show us characters who fall on either side. On all sides of the line.

Laurel Thomas 22:34

So interesting because, you know, if you look at Lord of the Rings, you have these little hobbits who are changing the world. Not so much in 1984. We know pretty quickly that Winston is fighting a losing battle and that it will not make a difference, which is so sad, but

Micah Leydorf 22:52

well, that's the difference, I guess, you know, in the Christian perspective that Tolkien was. Trying to convey versus hmm kind of a humanistic

Melissa Grace 23:04

very nihilistic.

Micah Leydorf 23:05

Right, I say it's super depressing versus really uplifting Oh my god, I can't say it But like

Kat Lewis 23:11

equally dark though. I mean both of these I mean Lord of the Rings gets dark and gritty really quickly

Laurel Thomas 23:17

And both totally totalitarian Issues. Yes. Yeah.

Melissa Grace 23:22

That's just such a huge thing. I thought that what made this world unique that he created was that so much of it was inside Wilson's mind. And. I don't know that I think that's awesome, because made it harder to read, but at the same time, it, it just got down to that very nitty gritty level of what it means to be a person. It means to have your own thoughts. And so that's why he had to.

Micah Leydorf 23:53

Right, there wasn't actually a, like you, that's a good point. You talk about POV as an author, and this is all from Winston's point of view, even to the fact of not even really knowing what is true and what is not. And, you know, what is reality, but, You know, yes, he did have this affair with Julia. So there's a little bit of action there, but there really was not very much action

Melissa Grace 24:15

until the, until the end, until the end when, you know, you know,

Micah Leydorf 24:21

even that wasn't a lot of action. I mean, even when he was torturing him with the exception of the rats and even really just the threat of the rats, there was just, it was mostly like you say, it was, it's in his

Melissa Grace 24:31

head and yeah, and it did make me think. Note to self, characters need to do things, you know, not just sit around and think.

Laurel Thomas 24:39

But you said it though, because it was all about thoughts.

Melissa Grace 24:42

Yes, yes. Well, let's move on to social commentary. There's just no way to not see what goes on in our society. And the thing that freaks me out about that is that we're so polarized politically in our society. And both sides think this about the other side. Both sides say, yes, you're distorting truth. That's what's scary.

Kat Lewis 25:11

You know, I think, um, talking about social truth that moved the plot forward because that's kind of how I like to frame the social commentary question that way and I'll just get off until I get Soapbox. Oh, you have 30 extra minutes? Let me tell you what Kat thinks about all these things.

Melissa Grace 25:29

From each of us.

Kat Lewis 25:30

Exactly, exactly. Stay tuned. Um, you know, there was that movie that he went to he was talking about going to the cinema. Again, this is the very first chapter. The first chapter, again, this is a novel where the first chapter sets it up so well that I felt compelled to keep reading, even if I was horrified. But he talks about, The movie that he goes to see at the theater and it's basically war footage of the government blowing up refugee boats And how the crowd was applauding. And how they drag out that one woman who was like, Oh my gosh, like we should not be

Laurel Thomas 26:08

There's a child on the boat!

Kat Lewis 26:09

You know? Yeah. I thought that was a really great example of foreshadowing. Right. Maybe foreshadowing the losing battle. Because when you have a whole audience of people applauding a boat full of children being blown up, You're like, Oh, Winston, I think that we, I think that the odds are not in your favor, my guy But also talking about like how, how well the author sets up, how poisoned and confused and hopeless the society is. And maybe I kept turning the page cause I was hoping for a sliver of hope. I'm like, where is the redemption?

Micah Leydorf 26:47

Yeah, you know, he does keep dragging us out with this idea that there's a resistance and maybe, you know, maybe this person who turns out to be a spy is a friend and maybe I can be part of this. And even with, even just in the love affair with Julia, just by quiet rebellion of writing in his journal or by having a love affair with somebody else. These are ways that he can resist, but then of course in the end, it's all for naught. But yeah, he does keep us going with the idea that perhaps there is more than this terrible existence.

Kat Lewis 27:22

And, I mean, I don't know if this is getting away from like social commentary that moves the plot forward, but I can see, Melissa, how the sides that are polarizing have a lot of traction against this idea of you are the resistance to the other side and you are the resist and so the site. They're you know kind of gaining this social momentum of oh no no we must we are the rebellion and we must stand against and you're like but who are we standing against though like anyways that that might be getting too too far deep into like just social commentary overall but

Laurel Thomas 27:54

yeah as a literary device That book is social commentary.

Melissa Grace 28:00

That's why he wrote it. It's a story.

Laurel Thomas 28:05

And that, you know, it, what he says on so many levels, you couldn't put that in 500 essays because

Melissa Grace 28:16

he could have written a brilliant essay, published it in academic journals or whatever saying. I'm concerned because and listed facts about this is how I see our society going. I, I don't like what I see. But a handful of people would have read it and we would never have heard of it. But he crafted this story that because there, he gave us characters to care about and these just such sharp mental pictures. Talk about the rats. I mean, that was a picture that I wanted out of my head.

Micah Leydorf 28:58

If anybody has ever read that, if they don't remember anything else, they remember that.

Melissa Grace 29:02

They remember the rats. I mean, so he communicated these timeless, timeless truths that we still need, that we still uh, You know, it's like eating your broccoli. It was not enjoyable to me, but it's important. Um, but because he crafted such a good story around this lie that he wanted to expose.

Laurel Thomas 29:25

Which is why we write stories. You know, we know the power of a story. We do. As writers and as readers. You know, there's nothing like a story that will speak on so many layers. It'll speak through characters. It'll speak through setting or the world.

Micah Leydorf 29:44

You know, a lot of, one of the things we talk about like, Oh, different Tools like Save The Cat like these different outlines to help you. Okay, here's where you need to you know Break into your second scene or have your inciting incident or whatever. You know, one of the things is the theme stated right was one of the elements and I think that That's one thing that he does so well as you know again states that theme over and over and again. That's why I can't Choose my quote. No! Because it's the theme stated, and he states it so well! And like, you know, the one that you said and I said, well, you said and I wrote but did not say, which is if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought. It reminds me of this professor in college I had that, um, used to say, sloppy language makes sloppy thought possible. And I think it's just so true, like, and that's what we're about, right? As writers, we're about trying to help people and implement the other things that we're entertaining them and all these things. But, language, like just encouraging better thought through, um,

Kat Lewis 30:54

You know, Micah, that's really beautiful. And in other settings, I would hesitate to say this, but I feel like for authors who desire books that are designed to change people, I would say that if you are not writing a novel that speaks to some deep, deep truth that you believe on an intrinsic level, it's not worth writing. And I actually, I do think that there's a whole a whole movement of creatives who are anti theme because it, they believe that theme is preachy, but we talk about No, no, no. Theme allows you to push through in a new ideas of creativity. Because if Orwell was just writing. If he just got mad one day off a social media post, and he was like, Oh, I need to write a novel that tells all these fools. He would not have crafted this novel. But there must've been something that resonated so deeply with him. That he's like, no, no, no, I have to get these words out into the world. And I would say for writers who aspire to write not only great fiction, but fiction that's relevant to today and to our children and to their grandchildren and their grandchildren. That if you're not writing fiction that's deeply resonant to you and that's a little hard to write, it's probably not worth writing.

Laurel Thomas 32:09

Well, I would just say in defense of story that, um, okay. It's just not a story, but it's a movie. It's 27 dresses. And I watch these kinds of things that you on YouTube late at night when I'm really, really tired. Okay, so I don't know that every story has to carry that strong cultural element. Some stories are for entertainment.

Kat Lewis 32:32

And that's wonderful, but I don't know that 27 Dresses will will be carried forward into the next movie.

Laurel Thomas 32:39

No, but what I'm saying is there is a, there, I mean, we can't be, I don't think we can be so narrow about story because story can just be entertaining.

Kat Lewis 32:49

No, and that's okay, this is my personal belief. There is plenty of entertaining fiction out there.

Laurel Thomas 32:54

But to say it shouldn't be written, I don't know that it shouldn't be written. Oh. I'm just saying, but if you, Yes.

Kat Lewis 33:00

For this community of people, I think, we are reaching.

Laurel Thomas 33:04

And I think classic literature, which is what we talk about, is endured for that reason. Because it does carry a strong theme.

Melissa Grace 33:13

Something that resonates, it's so deeply personal, it resonates through the ages. It's, it's not a story that's going to go away because of a little technology or something like that. It's based on something so much deeper, um, within human nature. Yeah. I agree. Any other closing thoughts?

Micah Leydorf 33:34

No, I think this was, um, another good pick. I think this was a very strong, very strong, um, impactful. We're trying to talk about stories that change us. I think this one changed our society has changed. It's changed.

Melissa Grace 33:47

It changed us as a society. Well, thank you for tuning in and we'll see you next time on Stories That Change Us