Behind The Blockbuster: Writing Lessons from The Odyssey by Homer

Bold, immersive, and surprisingly modern—Homer’s The Odyssey is more than an ancient epic; it’s a masterclass in storytelling that still shapes today’s bestsellers. With a nonlinear opening, tightly structured episodes, and a protagonist driven by wit as much as will, Homer builds a narrative that balances high-stakes adventure with deeply human longing. His use of archetypes, recurring motifs, and vivid imagery creates momentum and meaning, while themes of identity, resilience, and homecoming give the story lasting emotional weight. Join us as we unpack how The Odyssey continues to influence modern fiction—and what writers can learn from its structure, character strategy, and thematic precision to craft stories that truly stand the test of time. 

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Transcript

0:01

Welcome to the Stories That Change Us and our exciting new miniseries behind the Blockbuster, where we break down the novels behind today's biggest film releases and uncover the storytelling craft that made them impossible to ignore. We analyze the structure, characters and high impact choices that turn books into box office hits. Join Laurel, Melissa, Micah, and Kat as we seek to understand what makes a story not just good but cinematic. This is where the real work begins. After the fall of Troy, the cunning Greek hero Odysseus set sail for Ithaca, where his wife, Penelope and son Telemachus, wait for his return. But the journey stretches from years into decades, after he earns the wrath of the sea, God Poseidon, when he blinds Poseidon's son Cyclops. He resists the lore of the sirens, escapes the deadly grasp of silla and krypto and is held captive by the enchanting nym Calypso, who offers him immortality. Again and again, Odysseus survives. But each escape comes at a cost to himself and his crew Back in Ithaca, Penelope is surrounded by aggressive suitors who consume their wealth and pressure her to remarry. While Telemachus grows up in the shadow of a father he barely remembers. At last Odysseus returns. What follows is not a reunion but a reckoning. He reveals himself, reclaims his home, and restores order with decisive, brutal force. The Odyssey is more than an adventure. It's a meditation on identity, loyalty, and perseverance. It asks what it means to return home, and whether anyone can endure such a journey unchanged.

Laurel Thomas 2:05

Hey, it's Laurel Thomas here with Stories That Change Us, and we are four writers who read great fiction to write great fiction. We also represent four different generations, of which I might be the oldest, but we won't go there immediately. So today we are talking about the Epic poem by the Blind Poet, Homer. Called the Odyssey. And of course it's the second Epic poem if you're counting. Many of us studied excerpts of the Odyssey or the Iliad in high school possibly. And so we do not call ourselves experts in this process, we're not even sure who chose this.

Kat Lewis 2:51

Nobody,

Micah Leydorf 2:54

I think it was Cat,

Laurel Thomas 2:55

but we're not naming names'cause nobody knows. So

Kat Lewis 2:59

I'm gonna exonerate myself right now.

Laurel Thomas 3:03

So I've introduced myself, Laurel and I write fantasy actually. So I'm just gonna open up and let everyone introduce themselves.

Kat Lewis 3:11

My name is Kat Lewis and I write romantic thrillers and screenplays.

Micah Leydorf 3:17

I'm Micah Leydorf and I write Christian speculative fiction, nonfiction and Bible studies.

Melissa Grace 3:22

I'm Melissa Grace and I write inspirational fiction, for the general market

Laurel Thomas 3:28

so, we look at enduring literature And how and why it has endured. Well, Homer wrote the Odyssey 2,800 years ago.

Micah Leydorf 3:41

It doesn't get any more enduring Exactly. This epic poem. This is the og.

Laurel Thomas 3:46

So, you know, we're just gonna break this down our understanding of a form of literature that really is daunting when we begin to look at, oh my gosh, Kat said we have to read this thing.

Micah Leydorf 4:01

Or she suggested it because there is a major motion picture, maybe the biggest this year coming out later this summer. So we know you guys want the behind the scenes.

Kat Lewis 4:11

I want the behind the blockbuster and I'm not gonna read it otherwise. It is such a massive work. I think a lot of people would like to consume this literature, but it just is very overwhelming. I didn't, once I got into it, I did not find it overwhelming at all.

Laurel Thomas 4:26

It's very episodic in many ways which helps us break it down and thematically there, it's so rich. And so we're gonna get into how many different works of literature have come out of the themes of the Odyssey, which basically is a man who is a husband and a dad just trying to get home,

Kat Lewis 4:49

To your point, there are so many iconic characters and iconic stories that in the storytelling world and in filmmaking world, they're almost like common vernacular, you know? And as representing the millennials here, sometimes it's easy to discredit and disregard something that has enduring power. Like, I may not know anything about Greek gods and goddesses, but I have heard of Zeus and I have heard of Cyclops, and I've heard of the sirens and how all these things actually have their modern day equivalent. It's really neat to go back to the source material and it would be arrogant of me to say the Odyssey is not relevant in 2026. And I'm like, actually, it continues to be.

Melissa Grace 5:30

To piggyback on what Kat was saying, this Odyssey seems to have everything. It has so many tropes and foundational stories that just resonate with us as humans. And I think that's what's cool about reading something this old

Micah Leydorf 5:49

It's been called the very birthplace of literary fiction. So you say like, it has so many tropes, it's like, no, it is the origin. It's the origin of it doesn't have those, it created those, it's those, yes.

Laurel Thomas 5:59

Yes. Wow. Which I think is so amazing about great literature and the timelessness of it. Are those universal themes?

Micah Leydorf 6:09

Yes.

Laurel Thomas 6:09

That a dad just trying to get home, he's been in a war for 10 years that he didn't want to be a part of. Basically, the universal concept is a man who is just trying to get home and he's facing all these circumstances that are enormous because many of them are god driven. Supposedly,

Micah Leydorf 6:32

I wanna just make a comment about kind of the bigger picture is the idea of this oral tradition and telling the story. Because simultaneously, I was actually from my other book club, reading a modern book called, this is Happiness by Nile Williams, which is about an Irish village. But you know, we know the Irish are great storytellers. so I actually was going to just give you guys a quote from that. Again, this is talking about what story meant to people in a time before we had all this technology and in cultures before there were all these facts, and this is the quote, it says,"The known world was not so circumscribed then nor knowledge equated with facts. Story was a kind of human binding. I can't explain it any better than that. There was telling everywhere, because there were fewer sources of where to find out anything. There was more listening". So I just think that was so relevant. Again, this story was talking about 1950, so it wasn't that long ago, even though it was in this small little village without electricity in Ireland. But how much more true 2000 years before Christ. Story was everything. People had the luxury of listening, the thing we don't have now of time, and you wanted the story to go on. And I think that's just so important when you think about that this story is 30 hours and that it's 24 different episodes. You know, for a while there we were all into the two hour motion picture, but maybe this even explains a bit of why we wanna watch the eight hour Netflix.

Laurel Thomas 8:06

We want a series. We wanna, we want a series.

Micah Leydorf 8:08

I want it to go on more. I wanna get to know the characters. Don't just rush me through it in, in two hours. Yes, for sure.

Kat Lewis 8:15

I think that storytelling in the ancient days and in the ancient world, and honestly even 1950s is postmodern. I mean, it is not that far away. We have our grandparents can remember what those days look like. Storytelling was communal. And there's kind of a quote within the Odyssey where he's like, tell me the nations and the cities and the countries from which you come and tell me about these kinds of people. The universality of story is what allows us to sit and actually understand each other. I may not be able to understand your language or all of your cultural references, but I can understand a son trying to preserve the homestead. That's right. I can understand a wife who is loyal to a dead husband to a fault. Story allows for me to immerse myself in that.

Laurel Thomas 9:03

Well, let's talk about our favorite quotes. In reference to the gods, which I thought was interesting, this Zeus. Zeus is,"Oh, how shameless, the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways come compound their pains beyond their proper share". So I think as we talk about a story that's entrenched in the gods, we're against this mortal man and how it was basically a supernatural journey. Zeus himself says, Hey, they give us far too much credit.

Kat Lewis 9:42

They all had different agendas. You've got athena who's trying to get Odysseus home. And then you've got Poseidon who's got a beef with him. And then you've got all these micro gods and goddesses who I've never heard of accepted within this tale. But then they all can control these massive elements of nature. So you're like, oh, great, let's just have four gods and goddesses. You all can control wind and wave. And no wonder it took the man 10 years to get home.

Laurel Thomas 10:08

We've all felt that we've had enormous forces. What we've wanted to accomplish. We recognize that there are so many incredible odds that come up against a man and yet those journeys were part of his heroism.

Melissa Grace 10:26

And it made the story good. It made the story. It was the story.

Laurel Thomas 10:29

It was the story because it proved his heart over and over and over. I love my wife. I wanna see my son. His heroism is rooted in what he loves. And I think that for us as writers, when we look at our own lives, we go, what is it that roots our heroism?

Micah Leydorf 10:49

That's beautiful. Laurel, I love that your heroism is rooted in what you love. I think that's so true. And of course, Laurel, as has happened before, you stole my quote of course, but it's okay because I actually had a backup one just in case. But I'm gonna actually do something unprecedented and take a liberty and quote from not The Odyssey because, and back from that book I just referred to This is Happiness, because I just felt like it applied so well. Yeah. I, if somebody stole my quote, and this goes back to actually what you were saying, Kat, it's actually the exact same wording that you said about trying to compete with reality. Um, the author, he says,"My point is the story had to compete with emphatic actuality and defeat it by an heir construction of the imagination, adhering to the Ian principle that if you can take the mind, the body will follow. To conquer both time and reality, then, one of the unwritten tenets of the local poets was the story must never arrive at the point or risk conclusion. Time was the only thing people could afford. All stories were long. All storytellers took their and your and anyone else's time, and they all gave it up willingly. Understanding that tales of anything as aberrant and contrary as human beings had to be long. Not to say convoluted, had to be so long that they wouldn't, and in fact couldn't be finished this side of the grave and only for the fire gone out and the birds of dawn singing might still be continuing still". When I read that, it just reminded me so much of these Greeks sitting around the fire, sitting around the banquet table listening, to the poet. I think one of the facts that you threw out there earlier, Laurel, was that this wasn't written down for the first 200 years. Mm. That people only heard it the orally, over the fire. And I'm sure they were not sitting there for 30 hours. So it was in installments.

Melissa Grace 12:50

Yes. And from a story perspective, it's all about conflict. A man getting on a boat and going home, you know, a two week journey or whatever, smooth sailing the winds in your back or whatever, that's not a story because there's no conflict. And there's conflict after conflict after conflict and,

Kat Lewis 13:11

yeah. Well, and even how that's generational. I love how Homer is kind of portrayed as like this old blind man. So you have all the generations coming to sit at the feet of the town, grandfather, right? Old and young alike avidly locked into what he's saying, I love that it brings the generations together in a way Cool. That we maybe miss out.

Melissa Grace 13:33

I love

Kat Lewis 13:33

on in a modern,

Melissa Grace 13:34

I love it. The context. Yeah.

Kat Lewis 13:36

But my favorite quote, I had several. This one it's just worth mentioning in a time where we just don't turn our brains off. It says there is a time for many words, there's also a time to go to bed.

Laurel Thomas 13:47

Yes, yes. I love that.

Melissa Grace 13:49

Yes, I remember that one.

Kat Lewis 13:50

There's times to get riled up and there's times to go to sleep. But really my quote for this is I believe this comes in book one and it says,"Tell me about a complicated man muse. Tell me how he wandered and was lost when he had wrecked the holy town of Troy and where he went and who he met, the pain he suffered in the storms at sea, and how he worked to save his life and bring his men back home. He failed to keep them safe, poor fools. They ate the sun god's cattle and the god kept them from home. Now, goddess, child of Zeus tell the old story for our modern times. Find the beginning". There's so many little tidbits. I love how that one little paragraph condenses the whole story. But I love this idea of, this recurring theme of the old brought back into a modern perspective. There's really no story that's new in the world. We're all retelling the same old stories.

Melissa Grace 14:52

Yes.

Kat Lewis 14:52

Just in a new way for a modern audience. I also love, for storytellers, this concept of find the true beginning. What's the real beginning of the story? As we're wrestling with drafts and we're wrestling with what's a hot inciting incident? What's a good hook? It's like, what's the real emotional heart of the story and where's the beginning within that? I love that quote as a person, and I love that quote as a creative.

Melissa Grace 15:17

It kind of sounds like maybe Kat and I read the same translation, but I felt like it was a male fantasy comic book. I mean, the language was simple and the story was very told. And there was one passage that stood out to me as just so beautiful because. I love beautiful writing. You know, we read Hamnet and everything is just gorgeously phrased and evocative and makes you feel something besides, oh my goodness, that six headed thing must be really ugly or whatever. But, this, it's about how Odysseus cried. It's describing his tears, like when the poet is telling about his home or his journey at Odysseus, cried as a woman weeps. As she falls to wrap her arms around. Her husband fallen fighting for his home and children. She's watching as he gasps and dies. She shrieks a clear high whale collapsing upon his. They hit her shoulders with their spears and lead her to slavery, hard labor, and a life of pain".. It just made me feel, and it was like this little oasis in this,

Kat Lewis 16:41

just it's that little moment of emotional clarity. Yes. In the

Melissa Grace 16:46

action film. Yes.

Kat Lewis 16:47

Right?

Melissa Grace 16:47

Yes,

Micah Leydorf 16:48

yes,

Melissa Grace 16:48

exactly. It's an action film, and then there's this moment where the writer just hits it on the head of just true grief. Just like the deepest grief you can feel.

Micah Leydorf 17:00

So I think that skipping ahead to our next question about what literary elements that Homer does particularly well is exactly that. Like, you know, Kat was just saying, we need to find the emotional heart of our story. And I feel like that's what Homer does so well, is that he uses short sentences. It is like you said, kind of almost comic book like, okay, and this happened, and then that happened.

Melissa Grace 17:22

Not much showing, very told.

Micah Leydorf 17:24

Right. But there's just a few little words that he throws in there. Is He always talks about the rose finger dawn appears, yes, yes, yes. So it's just, it's not long. It's four words, but it creates this image, that's what he does so well, is that he adds emotion into these short little narratives of the action that happened.

Melissa Grace 17:46

And I love that. He just makes things big. Carrying on with the theme of literary elements. If you're gonna have a cyclops, make it the most grotesque thing that acts in the most grotesque way

Micah Leydorf 17:59

We've discussed this before about like what ancient literature sometimes has on modern literature. So you have your John Grisham novels, you know, they're just like, action, action, action. This read cinematic. I feel like I could just watch it on a screen and it's like, what? Tell me the emotion behind it and how do you figure doing that? And he does it so well.

Laurel Thomas 18:17

Some of modern literature gets really a bad rap. Because if you've read John Grisham, I finished Fetching Raymond, which is a story about two brothers and their mom going to see their brother who's in prison on death row, and they're going to witness his execution. It's gorgeous. It's so well written. But bottom line, however, our voice portrays the heart of a character. Like, when Odysseus, when they're coming to Carabidus and Silla, he has to make a decision as the leader to sacrifice seven men instead of to sacrifice everyone in the whirlpool. That is not emotionally descriptive, but it tells us everything about him

Kat Lewis 19:08

so making the stakes hugely insurmountable to the point that it narrows down as you were talking about what's the source of your heroism? There's some talk about the beautiful imagery in this novel. There's a moment where he's on this island with Calypso and, she could have just said he was sad and he was ready to go home. No. Homer was like, he could be in this beautiful cave, in this oasis with this goddess, but he prefers to sit on this rocky beach. Staring out at the gray ocean.

Micah Leydorf 19:36

Yeah.

Kat Lewis 19:37

Sobbing, right.

Micah Leydorf 19:38

Yeah. That's good.

Kat Lewis 19:39

And, and you're like, tell me, this man prefers to be anywhere else and this goddess wants to marry him and make him, make him a god. A portal.

Micah Leydorf 19:47

Yeah. Yeah. He's

Kat Lewis 19:48

like, I just wanna get home to my wife and my son. I mean, if we're talking about literary elements that Homer executes, I think in a very exciting way. I think he's the master of story reversals, Every time we think the god or the goddess or the monsters in control, he switches it up on us. And I think that's why Odysseus is considered like a clever hero. Homer always shifting the tides of power. I mean, how many times in the story did he say they were within reach of land? And the gods would bring a strong wind to sweep them back out to sea.

Laurel Thomas 20:22

But there was a reason, because remember Aeolus I can't Aeolus, I can't remember his name, had given him the bag of wind, and his men were like, oh, we know it's treasure of some kind, so it's waiting for him to go to sleep so we can check it out and get our part.

Micah Leydorf 20:38

It just goes back to your first quote Laurel, about like, oh, the gods are against us. It's like, no, it's your own fault. You brought this on yourself. Sacrifice the sacred cows, if you hadn't opened up the bag of wind. I done all these things. That wasn't us. That's on you.

Melissa Grace 20:55

Right? Well, but that, that discussion makes me think of when we were brainstorming your novel. You came in, you were really excited, you said, okay, just watch a really good football game where this team had the lead and then this team had the lead. And it's like, I wanna write that.

Laurel Thomas 21:10

And I would like to say that he may be the original fantasy author. You know, you think about these creatures are fantastical and way bigger badder than Mortal man. And we're not even talking about the gods. We're talking about Cyclops and Searcy and the Lotus Eaters and all the things. These are like incredible fantasy elements.

Micah Leydorf 21:36

but again, that just resonates. I think that's why people love science fiction Now again, to go into like kind of the thematic things is this is how we feel in our life. We feel like there's these big forces and it makes us feel, I don't know, seen or maybe elevates us from the great specks in the universe that to have someone tell a story paint it with these big vivid colors.

Kat Lewis 21:57

To your point, every iteration of humanity is painted very correctly in this story. You can see yourself, you can insert yourself into every moment, every episode of the story, I think.

Laurel Thomas 22:10

If we look at literary elements, my favorite thing to look at is how, CS Lewis Voyage of the Dawn Tredder has so many elements of the Odyssey. And totally different characters., The characters are unexpectedly heroic, but they have to work together, but they're always landing in new places. That they have no grid for at all, which I think is really a picture of life. And then the Lion King, where, you know, the son must arise, in the midst of an absent father. And what does that look like? Well, he makes mistakes and he sits by the shore and he stares at the ocean for many, many years before he ever says, you know what? I think I'm gonna do something.

Micah Leydorf 22:56

I think it's impossible to even know all the influence that the Odyssey has had. Again, it's the birthplace, it's the origin, it's the influence is untold.

Kat Lewis 23:07

I do wanna, I do wanna mention, and I do think it's important because we were talking about the, the history of verbal storytelling, right? And how the story was told over the fire for 30 plus hours if you're talking, if somebody's expedient, how has the story been retained? And all of the beats and all the characters been remained intact. And even like, you go back to like biblical stories, stories of even like ancient religions that were shared verbally, and it's this structure called Chiastic storytelling. It's like everything comes to a point at the midpoint in the story, which is the reversal. And then everything after that reversal is actually reiterating all the story beats before. Right. And I, and I actually think that's the only way that they could tell the story. I can tell you Chiastic storytelling is a thing because historians who break down the psalm, they'll tell you that David uses, Chiastic storytelling that CS Lewis and JR Tolkien and whoever wrote Harry Potter, her name is eluding me,

Micah Leydorf 24:05

JK Rowland,

Kat Lewis 24:06

they all actually studied Chiastic storytelling and harnessed that in their stories.

Melissa Grace 24:12

One of the things that your discussion has brought up in me is just within a good story, it's not just one big conflict at the beginning that gets resolved at the end. The character goes through a million conflicts. Life would be boring. Just like your book would be boring if you didn't have,

Laurel Thomas 24:30

I have no commentary about that because little too much lately. But this is important. This may be a bit of a reach for us, but you know us, we're gonna make those reaches. Were there aspects of social commentary in the Odyssey? I mean, we're looking at 2,800 years ago.

Kat Lewis 24:45

I, I'm gonna go back to hospitality. For the most part, it was like when he was welcomed into a space,, it was hospitality almost with no expectation. They wanted community. They wanted community. That's good. Love social commentary.

Micah Leydorf 24:57

I like that, Kat. And I think that's true. I like what Laurel said earlier about heroism is rooted in what you love. I feel like that's the commentary, right? This is what is your character is what you love. That resonates throughout the ages. We think of social commentary of like, oh, just like a political or whatever, but it's like, no, it's just, you're just communicating value. This is what our society says is true about humans. Like who you love determines like who you are.

Laurel Thomas 25:24

It's so telling for a real story because what you love and what you're willing to go through conflict for. And it's hard for people to understand that it's rooted in conflict because it reveals what we love. Where we're willing to be a hero, even though

Melissa Grace 25:40

I love that definition of conflict, it reveals what we love. Yeah. I'm gonna write that down and,

Kat Lewis 25:46

and what we are willing to die for.

Melissa Grace 25:49

Yeah.

Kat Lewis 25:49

Especially, you know, Odysseus's crew, it was like every time that they were motivated by greed or lack of trust is when everything went south.

Laurel Thomas 26:00

That was part of his character arc.'cause when I was talking to my dear sister who taught English for many years, retired as an English teacher. She said, you see character arc in Odysseus, he starts with lots of who hub is it? Hubris.

Micah Leydorf 26:15

Hubris,

Laurel Thomas 26:15

yeah. Yeah. Like,

Micah Leydorf 26:16

yes,

Laurel Thomas 26:16

you know, macho things, you run on that. But then as the journey continues, he realizes, wow, they got us in a big trouble in a big way. And you don't see him coming back home with that macho man by then, he stripped of everything.

Micah Leydorf 26:32

It probably wouldn't have gone so well for him either, if he did. If he hadn't come disguised as a beggar and kind of humble and. Thinking like, okay, I'm gonna not just rush in here and expect my wife to just fall at my feet. Instead, like gonna like scope out the situation before I make my moves.

Melissa Grace 26:49

But then there's a reversal and he's the only one who can string the bow and he's the only one who can shoot the arrow through the axes and they're the arrogant get their comeuppance. Yeah. We

Laurel Thomas 27:00

can't wait

Micah Leydorf 27:00

for that screenplay version.

Melissa Grace 27:02

Yeah. Know. It's gonna be, it's gonna be, it's gonna be wonderful.

Laurel Thomas 27:06

Melissa has another social commentary.

Melissa Grace 27:08

Yes. Another social commentary. And it's the power of a good wife. Ooh. Let's talk about it. I mean, let's talk about it. It's a good one. How do we wanna skip that? It's, we don't wanna skip that. It's, it's all through the power of a good wife. And it just made me think of Proverbs 31, like starts with the value of a good wife. It's more than Ruby. And that is a universal theme

Kat Lewis 27:31

can we also talk about, I think it goes directly with that, the power of a good wife. I think if Penelope had been something other than what she was, it would've been really difficult for Odysseus to listen to all of the female nymphs along the way, right? Mm-hmm.'Cause honestly he doesn't have a good track record with deities, you know, but it's all of these nymphs who were like, go this way, avoid this, this is how you overcome this massive thing. And I think that if his wife had been deceitful or untrustworthy or whatever, he wouldn't have had this model where he's like, okay. Like if they're anything like Penelope,

Laurel Thomas 28:07

such a good point, Kat.

Kat Lewis 28:07

I can. And so whether you are a wife or even just being like a good friend as a woman. Our words have such power. I really think that people are inclined to listen to the words of a wise woman. And dedicating yourself to being a woman who is like, I realize that my words have this inexplicable soul power, so I wanna use them well, that way, when they're talking to their mom, when they're talking to their boss, when they're talking to this troll on social media, right? Who's speaking life and encouraging people to incline their ear to the feminine voice versus seeing it as a negative thing.

Micah Leydorf 28:43

I think that's a really astute observation, Kat and I actually see it in my own life, like sometimes you don't realize it, but my husband was blessed to have a really amazing mother, super intelligent, first person to graduate from UCLA med school. And the fact that his mother was so wise and so accomplished, I think is part of what allows us to have a really good marriage. Because his mother was such a role model, that he has no qualms about no issues, thinking that women are not completely capable of giving wisdom and being listened to. But I think that's just a really interesting idea that because Penelope was such a great influence on him, that it affects the way he relates to all the other women in his life. Yeah.

Kat Lewis 29:30

That's

Laurel Thomas 29:30

powerful. Good. That's powerful. So good. Well, we are talking about high impact characters. Speaking of Penelope and because she's not front and center, is she? Except she is front and center all the way through the journey. She is his heart and she's the reason that he's pushing through

Melissa Grace 29:47

My thought was that the gods were so high impact. The minor ones caused trouble, the big ones having to make'em behave, the temptations to come be a god with me. And of course, Athena's help and what she does all the way through

Micah Leydorf 30:07

absolutely. Melissa, think how boring the story would be without the gods in it. Like, okay, I did this and then I just got blown off course. And for 20 years,

Melissa Grace 30:15

again, it's conflict. It just comes back to just how essential and central conflict is to every story, every good story.

Kat Lewis 30:23

I'm going back to Penelope. I'm going to Jane Austen, y'all, in how going home to his wife was just the thing that kept him pressing forward and, in persuasion. And do not watch The New Persuasion with Dakota Johnson. Skip that version. Go straight to the 1995 version.'cause it's

Micah Leydorf 30:42

or read the novel.

Kat Lewis 30:43

Or read the novel. Though I did find persuasion, like I needed to watch the movie and then read the novel in order to appreciate everything that was like the building drama. But, at one point Anne is having this discussion with another sailor and, he's talking about how women's love is fickle and and Ann replies, she's like I'm not gonna to sit here and defend my sex to you, but one thing that is true of all of us, is that we will love longest when all hope is gone.

Melissa Grace 31:10

Oh,

Kat Lewis 31:10

and there is part of that wonders if, you know, there's a little correlation over here to the Odyssey, you know, or just the real truth of you literally see Penelope pushing off these suitors who were like, he's been gone for 20 years. What's your issue, woman? She had this scheme where she was like, oh, I'll be ready to marry when I finish this tapestry. And so by day she's sitting by the tapestry working on it so the suitors can see her, and by night she's unraveling the things. And I just thought, man, what does it look like to have such a steadfast love for somebody where you are? Like, he's not dead until I've seen it with my own eyes and I'm going to preserve his estate. I'm gonna preserve our marriage. I'm not gonna compromise. It was, that love that will not compromise that I thought was really just really powerful. And how heart wrenching would it have been? For him to come home. I'm thinking about that movie, the Castaway with, uh,

Micah Leydorf 32:05

I was just thinking of all the other stories like, hey, maybe, Claire and Outlander could have taken a note from

Kat Lewis 32:10

them. That

Micah Leydorf 32:11

was always my issue with Claire.

Kat Lewis 32:12

Yeah. Where, you know, in the Castaway where Tom Hanks returns after being stranded on this island, and it's the love of his wife that gets him through that. And she's buried him and married off to some other person. And I just think Penelope,

Laurel Thomas 32:28

presence. Well, and she was no pushover. You think about what she endured for 20 years and even when Odysseus came back, she was like, I'm gonna test the man. And he had. He had drawn the bow, accomplished the contest. I don't think that she witnessed him massacring, all the suitors. But anyway, when all that is over, she tells the servant, move the bed to this other room. And that's when Odysseus says, wait a minute. And yet it's her proof. She knew that. He knew that their marriage bed had been carved out of an olive tree. And it was the final beautiful test.

Melissa Grace 33:09

And a beautiful picture, an immovable thing.

Laurel Thomas 33:12

So she was savvy, she was strong. She wasn't gullible or a pushover. She was equally heroic as her husband.

Kat Lewis 33:20

That's good. I'll also say, I think that Penelope's story also highlights the power of like wise friends. Because there were a few moments where Penelope snapped. Oh yeah. You know, and it was her maid who was like, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, woman. Even in being heroic, there are gonna be moments when you are just weak and destitute and who are you surrounding yourself with.

Micah Leydorf 33:43

So good.

Kat Lewis 33:43

Are you surrounding yourself with people who believe in you and in the vision just as much as you do? Yeah. So, linking arms together,

Micah Leydorf 33:52

like with your four author friends. Yes, yes, yes.

Melissa Grace 33:57

Which I have had the thought I would not still be writing if it was not for this group, this accountability and encouragement. It's a huge thing.

Laurel Thomas 34:07

And remind each other why you're doing what you're doing.'Cause all four of us believe that there's a almost a calling aspect of what we do as creatives that we were uniquely made to do what we do. But I can see that is a gift that was handcrafted in my life. And it is a commonality that I find in the three of you. But that commonality of that literary creativity it's kind of holy ground. And it's hotly contested by the world around us. And so who do we need? We need our tribe.

Micah Leydorf 34:46

That's our gift and our passion is, is the literary side, but God is a creator and we were created in the image of God. And so all of us as humans, that's the divine spark in us, is that we are creators. And maybe you're creating computer code or maybe you're creating a family, or You're curating friendships and hospitality. But we're all creators. And like you said there, because it is the good, there is evil forces that was gonna resist against it. So it's important to embrace that and recognize it for the beauty and goodness it is in the world.

Laurel Thomas 35:18

Yeah. And to realize that we're going to get our strength from people who have committed their hearts to us., And that's such a rare, beautiful thing. And yet it's timeless. It's all about the Odyssey. 2,800 years ago. Enduring love. The kind of love you can count on to make it through conflict.

Kat Lewis 35:41

I dunno about you ladies, I feel like I say this almost every single novel because classic literature it's very intimidating to approach. Why is it that I can read 400 pages of some epic fantasy, modern fantasy? But I really, really, really loved the Odyssey and I loved exploring all of the deeply human truths within this. And I love being in a niche club of people who have read this full thing.

Micah Leydorf 36:08

Why did you wanna take credit for gonna say, we, that person shall not be named because of us know,

Kat Lewis 36:18

none of us know where this came from,

Micah Leydorf 36:22

know,

Kat Lewis 36:22

but my encouragement to you is if you can't read it, listen to it, because the listening experience is just as good. But it's phenomenal and I think you guys should join the club and read this novel

Laurel Thomas 36:31

because you are a part of our tribe after all you are, whether you're a reader or a writer. So, thanks so much for joining us. We have totally loved being with you. We are doing what is really our happy place when we talk about great fiction. And, when we look at it as writers that's one point of view, but we're also readers, so we consider our tribe is a big one. So thanks so much for joining us. Have a great week.

Kat Lewis 36:59

Bye guys. Bye-bye. Bye.

37:03

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